Janis Zech: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the RevOps Lab. I am here with Kristina Kardell. Good to see you.

Kristina Kardell: Good to see you too. How are you doing?

Janis Zech: I'm doing good. Wish we had a bit of a better summer in Berlin, but otherwise, I'm great. How are you?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. It sucks. It's a really, really bad summer. I think I've never had so much rain.

Janis Zech: So, I mean, we had a very good chat about, you know, revenue cadences at RevOps AF Berlin. And today, I wanted to dive deeply into this topic. But before we dive in, I'd love to, you know, learn more about who you are and what you currently do.

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Absolutely. So I do revenue operations and go to market strategy currently at Kombo, which is a unified API for HR tech, a startup here in Berlin. Also have an office in New York. Previously, was at Leapsome, also doing revenue operations and go to market strategy, and then my background is in management consulting.

Janis Zech: Awesome. Yeah. So I think today we wanted to dissect revenue cadences. Maybe for context, right, I think if you want it or not, you do run revenue cadences, a set of different check ins, touch points, and deliverables that need to happen between different members. And so, I mean, in your mind, like, what is a revenue cadence and, you know, why do they actually matter?

Kristina Kardell: I mean, I think it's, in a nutshell, kind of what you already alluded to, I think. But for me, it's a kind of structured rhythm of meetings and reporting cycles that kind of make sure that your go to market engine or revenue engine is, you know, marching to the same beat and in the same direction, or whatever type of analogy you wanna use. But what it also means to me, ensuring that we have those cadences, is actually the glue between kind of plan and execution. So, you know, you know where to go, but also then making sure that you actually kind of walk in the right direction, so to speak. And I think, you know, it's one of those, like, really important things to get right and actually think through because otherwise, plans tend to be just that, like, just a plan, and then you just get stuck in kind of execution. So, yeah, I mean, happy to also elaborate even more on why I think it's important and, like, what the consequences can be if you don't do this right.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I think, obviously, getting, you know, marketing and sales, sales and CS, the go to market function and product aligned, and also, you know, ensuring that RevOps has all the information needed to help orchestrate different workflows is obviously super crucial. And in my experience, revenue cadences can be a great help with that. I mean, maybe let's start high level. Right? Like, you set this up at Leapsome. Right? So today we wanna dive deep into your experience, kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly, right, like, of your lessons learned. I mean, typically, there's an annual cadence. Maybe let's start there, right, and then let's go into focusing on the in quarter cadence. But, yeah, what was your annual cadence, and then how did you go into the in quarter cadence?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Yeah. So annually, if I just summarize quickly, we would do both, obviously, like a financial plan. And then next to that, like a strategy, or whatever you wanna call it, like overarching kind of goals and bets that we wanna achieve and that we think will then move us along actually achieving those goals. So typically that would happen starting, you know, early Q3, talking more about this high level kind of bets, if we think that we need to, you know, look into specific, like, product areas, more kind of strategizing around what do we think we need to do. And then next to that, later on, starting to actually finalize, okay, what does that mean in terms of, you know, numbers for growth and what does that mean for the different functions, etcetera. So I think just having that clarity, and then we don't need to maybe deep dive into the annual planning process because I think that in itself is an entire topic. But having this joint understanding both on what are the numbers that we expect to hit or that we want to hit, and next to that, kind of verbalizing it in the strategy. So, like, okay. What does that actually mean? Like, what are we doing to actually move towards those goals? And I think having that joint understanding is definitely the foundation for then trickling that down into a kind of in quarter cadence and, like, a quarterly planning. So you have kind of that north star to kind of anchor it all to.

Janis Zech: And if you think about the in quarter cadence, what was, you know, how was it set up at Leapsome? What exactly were the touch points? Yeah. If you could maybe summarize first, and then we'll dive into the different, you know, areas.

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, first of all, I would split it into two buckets. So we have cross functional cadences, and then we have intra functional cadences, so to speak. You know, for example, within the sales function or within the RevOps team. So that's at least how I usually look at it. And then, of course, the other kind of dimension there is kind of the level of the topics that you're discussing. So splitting that into when are we talking about more, like, long term strategic topics, when are we, you know, tactically maybe aligning on things, and when are we operational and, like, executing. So that's kind of two dimensions that I would just, like, frame this by. And then if we start looking at, like, a cross functional — now focusing, of course, on go to market — so the go to market leadership team, as an example. We would do, on the more strategic level, we would do quarterly kind of retros tied to QBRs. And then we would also do then quarterly kind of planning sessions where we would go back to the annual goals, or the annual cycle that we set. So, okay, what did we say for, you know, the upcoming quarter that we wanna achieve? Did we have already ideas on, you know, bigger projects or initiatives? Can we use learnings from the past quarter to kind of adjust, etcetera? So we have a quarterly, more strategic session. Then we have a biweekly go to market leadership meeting that is more on a tactical level that we also can, of course, deep dive into. But that's a biweekly. And then we actually chose to monthly do a forecast call also in the go to market leadership. So then we have a cadence of understanding how are we pacing throughout the quarter, where will we end, already maybe looking at an outlook for the subsequent quarter. And we actually tie that to these biweekly leadership meetings. So every other one would just be prolonged, basically. So if you imagine kind of a flow from this like longer quarterly sessions going into this like biweekly sync and then back up to the kind of quarterly session. So that's on the cross functional go to market side. And then if we take just sales as an example — it can obviously also be customer success or marketing — we'll obviously have the intra functional setups to ensure that we're then also structuring, you know, information flows to the team and focusing also their time. And there we did a weekly team meeting in the sales team. So the frontline manager together with their reps, or they would both of course discuss general kind of topics, if there were updates or information. They would also review weekly the forecast submissions of the team, strategize maybe around key deals. If anyone had, you know, issues or maybe learnings, they would bring that into the team setting to have them collaborate, and then kind of just general team topics. We had weekly one on ones between the frontline manager and the rep that included a deep, like, pipeline focus. So more actually going really, really deep on, like, a pipeline review individually. And then we also ensured that within each go to market function, we had a leadership meeting. So the frontline managers together with the VP, enablement and RevOps would meet biweekly on the more like tactical level to see like what's going on in the function. Is there any, you know, fires that need to be put out, etcetera? And the benefit of having that also biweekly is that it can kind of overlap with this biweekly go to market leadership meeting that I was talking about earlier so that, you know, we can have information coming from the frontline into the go to market leadership, from the go to market leadership back into the frontline. So you have this kind of natural flow of information. And now I feel like I've been talking for a very long time. Just the last puzzle piece, I think, just to mention is that we also did in the RevOps team a biweekly planning cycle so that we had the same kind of cycle going there as well. Of like, these are longer projects that are running, but then we also biweekly say, okay, this is my upcoming sprint or whatever you want to label it. So I think that gives a sense, hopefully, of how it works.

Janis Zech: So I'll repeat from the end. So, obviously, the RevOps you just mentioned, but then weekly one on ones between the managers and the reps going deep on the pipeline review. Then a weekly team meeting, frontline managers with their team — you have multiple managers, right, so everybody does that — to share learnings, discuss key deals, discuss strategy, also review the forecast submissions, for the managers who then probably adjust. So that flows into the team leadership meeting that is biweekly and then alternates biweekly. Every two weeks there's basically this meeting, but then once a month it's kind of prolonged into a forecast meeting. And then you have a quarterly QBR, which is more like a retro to look at the previous quarter, and then you have a quarterly planning session. And then this is all orchestrated in terms of a flow so that one meeting basically prepares the other. I assume the one on ones happened before the team frontline manager meeting, that happens before the biweekly team leadership meeting. So let's maybe dive into a few of those meetings. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's super helpful. And this is something we see at, you know, many companies. Right? Like, I think you wanna strike the balance between too few meetings and too many meetings. So it's very important because there's a lot of time spent. Right? Like, if you think about how much money these meetings spend in terms of comp, it's a lot. Right? So if you do them too often, it's very expensive, and you might actually make the meeting even worse. Right? Because you're actually discussing the same things versus if you have too few of those, alignment starts to trickle, and you have other ripple effects that might be challenging because the information's not flowing across the different areas. So very specifically, let's maybe start with — and we can touch on this fast — what I would love to know is who's in the meeting, how do you prepare it, and what is kind of the three main outcomes? Right? Like, let's maybe start with the team meeting for the frontline managers. Like, you know, I mean, I assume who's in the meeting is clear, but, like, you know, kind of what's the top three items and then, you know, what's the outcome? And then maybe we go through these different meetings.

Kristina Kardell: I would say that they have three main topics, which I think you summarized also fairly well just now in your little aggregation of what I just said. But updates and information — so if there have been, you know, RevOps launched a new process or something's going on in the company, like the frontline manager would, you know, bring this back to the team. So that's one agenda item.

Janis Zech: Would you join these meetings as well as RevOps? I mean, would you sometimes say, hey, look, there's this meeting anyways. Like, you know, let me just join it.

Kristina Kardell: Yes. On like a need basis. So for example, if we, you know, launched a new process or there's something going on that we thought was, you know, best to actually discuss with the reps where we needed input, we would join the meetings just to like explain or talk it through with the team instead of doing it async. It would depend. But yes. So on a need basis, but not all the time. Yes. And then the second item would be the forecast submissions. So what changed from last week? Where are we? What does that mean? How can we, you know, maybe look at key deals together and strategize? And then the last part would be that we encourage the reps to actually bring in, you know, this is where I would need help or input, or can anyone, you know, help me? So I would say those are like the three things that would happen in that meeting.

Janis Zech: Awesome. And then you have the team meeting. Maybe let's start with the non forecasting edition. Who's in there? What do you typically discuss there? How does it work? You mean with the sales team? Yeah. I mean, so more, I think you had this like biweekly team leadership cross functional — yeah, so biweekly, exactly.

Kristina Kardell: We had a sales leadership meeting, that's what we called it. So that would be the frontline managers, the VP, enablement and RevOps. And that would be both in kind of aggregating any, you know, learnings or issues or questions that are coming from the team, or RevOps giving updates on, hey, this is what's upcoming so that the managers can already be, you know, bought in on maybe things that are going to be launched. Same thing for enablement. If there are trainings coming up, you know, they could kind of pre warm up the frontline managers or, you know, discuss. And obviously then also for the VP to then review forecast submissions to then bring that back into the go to market leadership, or if there are things coming from the go to market leadership, you can kind of bring that back in. So you have this kind of, you know, back and forth motion also. So yeah.

Janis Zech: And how long is that meeting?

Kristina Kardell: Forty five minutes.

Janis Zech: Okay. Team meeting for the managers is also forty five minutes? Yeah. Okay. And I assume you tried sixty and you tried thirty, and why not thirty or sixty?

Kristina Kardell: So I think thirty for biweekly, we just thought it was too short typically because there are like a lot of topics to cover. Forty five for us was this kind of golden middle ground because then you have usually that spare fifteen where you don't really book anything. So if something comes up within the meeting where you feel like, oh, I really wanna just like deep dive on this already now, we could say we kind of park it. So we take it in that little fifteen minute break. Because otherwise, you risk already trying to go into solution mode on the call, which really isn't helpful. But then you naturally provide that space to have like a quick debrief.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Okay. And who owns the meeting? Is there an agenda? What makes it to the agenda? Like, who is the agenda owner? And how do you do to dos after the meeting?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. So for the sales leadership or the intra functional ones, it's the VP of the function that owns the meeting. And typically, the outcomes would be owned by — or notes would be taken by — RevOps, typically, to ensure follow-up. And then, you know, depending on who is the owner of the follow-up, obviously, then carries out.

Janis Zech: Why are you smiling? So little — why are you smiling? A little anecdote. You know, when I was studying, I worked with a consultant, and we consulted Deutsche Telekom. And one of our jobs was to basically orchestrate meetings. So we were in these meetings with around twenty people, pretty much like executives and then further down. So I think the meeting overall, like two hours, costs fifty thousand US dollars if you just look at the comp. And if we were not there, there were basically no agenda, no structured discussion, and also no outcomes.

Kristina Kardell: I mean, that's actually reality that is very true in many companies.

Janis Zech: And so what you just said, it's extremely important that it's clear what the agenda is, it's clear what kind of the meeting hygiene factors are, and then also what the outcomes are. Let's maybe go into this cross functional meeting. Now I forgot, is that also once a month or biweekly, and what was the purpose of that again?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah, biweekly. Yes. So there we would have, of course, then the respective VPs of marketing, sales, CS. We had RevOps, and we had two co-CEOs. So then also the founders in the session. So that was the kind of base setup of the members. And this really is very based upon this, like, quarterly planning. So it's really important that you already have kind of an alignment on these are the strategic initiatives or areas that we're focusing on for this quarter. Because when you have that many and especially senior people in the room, you wanna make sure that the discussion is productive and focused. So what we would do is check in on progress. So you would typically then have, say you have a focus area for the quarter where maybe marketing and sales are both contributing. They would give, like, a red, green, yellow status update, and to not go too deep in just information sharing either, but just say, you know, it's on track, off track. And if they would need input from someone else or they're blocked or they need maybe a decision to be made, then they would prepare that and actually have that discussion happen in the meeting.

Janis Zech: And is that also with regards to KPIs? Or is that more strategic initiatives or both?

Kristina Kardell: It can be both. Okay. So we typically try to start with the initiatives to make sure that we had time for that. And then we had — I mean, you should typically have KPIs also tied to the initiatives to actually be able to track progress. But that's usually how we did it. So that we have already also this forum for discussions. And then we at least tried to — you know, reality sometimes happens — but also tried to be strict with actually preparing that. So say, you know, we have this ongoing initiative. I am now the VP of sales, and I'm realizing I need a decision on something from our VP of marketing. To actually then prepare that and post it on the agenda at least forty eight hours beforehand, so that people can also, you know, read through, prepare, so that we in the meeting can go straight to actually the discussion and the decision.

Janis Zech: How many people were in the meeting and who owned the meeting?

Kristina Kardell: So RevOps was the moderator of the meeting, and we would then be six or seven people, if I'm not counting correctly.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Company around two hundred people just for context, right, like, at that point, I think. Okay. Got it. And then, I mean, how do you — like, do you tie your annual goals and then quarterly goals also in that meeting so that you always look at it every two weeks with the entire kind of executive go to market team, I would call it?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Yes. We do. And then we also did a monthly business review. That was more brief, just like KPI kind of snapshots. And then if something was like very off, we would bring that into the meeting and discuss. Then also looking at the forecast numbers that we already mentioned, like coming in from the VP, from the frontline. And then quarterly, obviously doing a bigger QBR session. Because when you have that pulse of checking the KPIs and the progress, then everyone is kind of already aligned and aware of what's going on, what maybe needs to be done. So it makes also the discussions, you know, a lot more smooth. It also makes, you know, investor reporting easier because you don't need to chase down context. You can already proactively communicate. You know, it's also easier when we were preparing for board decks and things like that because you already have this kind of alignment and everyone is already aware of how we're doing.

Janis Zech: So it sounds like you have basically a reporting package for this specific meeting that hardly ever changes minus the strategic initiatives, but the strategic initiatives also, like, longer term strategic initiatives. So I would assume that they also are like standing items to look at. Yeah. And then the KPIs, obviously, standing items, and you're aligned on what you wanna look at and how you report on it, which then can obviously flow into the board deck, which is also really good, I think.

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Really good practice. Yeah. And then when you have that, like, agreement and understanding also on the KPIs, we obviously set up the dashboards in our BI tool. So you also don't have to do it one off, it's already there and kind of done. So it also minimizes the time for RevOps to actually prepare the numbers. You can more focus on actually looking at the results, which is obviously the important part.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Did you have a section in that where RevOps basically presents like their view? Like, hey, look, I mean, we analysed, you know, the status quo and we saw this is something where we think there's an opportunity to, you know, I don't know, reduce leakage or grow faster or improve the initiatives? Like, was that also a standing item?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. So we typically tie that to the MBRs and QBRs because RevOps would, you know, prepare the numbers and go deep on the results. So part of that would be me writing a little commentary and asking maybe the specific functions to comment if there were results where I didn't feel like I already had context or maybe wanted them to provide even more context. And then when we also did the QBR quarterly planning, like around this time, we would both flag like, hey, we see opportunities here or risks here, bring that into this session. Or, you know, if it's more RevOps topics, we would obviously just put it more on our own roadmap. But that way we can kind of pre-feed — also the benefit of being the moderator of these cross functional sessions is, you know, hey, in this strategic planning session, we should be looking at these results. These were the furthest off, or things like that. This is what we aggregated already from running these meetings. And here are also things that we found that we think we should have a closer look at.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Got it. So basically the intra functional meeting every two weeks, VPs plus frontline managers. Here, this basically cross functional is really the VPs, C-level plus RevOps, enablement, owned by RevOps, and then, you know, kind of prepared always in the same rhythm, reducing the overhaul. You mentioned initially that you had this alternation of, or you extended the biweekly meeting to a monthly business review. I assume that's also the forecast meeting. Is that the same, like, kind of thing?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Exactly. So we would look at, obviously, then right in the beginning of each month, the results from the past month, and then actually check the forecast numbers for the upcoming month, but primarily how do we think the quarter will end, and then a first glance at the subsequent quarter. Yep. So having that monthly cadence. Exactly.

Janis Zech: Yeah. So I assume that, beginning of the quarter, only focus on the quarter, then probably mid quarter, like the second, right? Like you probably focus on the quarter. And then in the third one, you also focus on the quarter plus one. Like, I mean, basically, is that something you look at?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah, exactly. And I would say also the first a little bit per KPI you're looking at. So I would say mid quarter, we would already have a pretty good eye on pipeline coverage for the upcoming quarter, which obviously depends a little bit on how long your sales cycle is. And then the further we get to the end of the quarter, you know, that's when we also would look at the actual forecast in terms of bookings for the upcoming quarter, because if sales cycles are too short, there's really no point in doing that earlier in the quarter.

Janis Zech: What were your top three, like, KPIs you looked at in this meeting? Like, in the forecast call? Yeah. I mean, yeah. Or in the, like, kind of executive team call biweekly, can be forecast call, but, like, in general, like, I mean, outside of the, let's say, go to market metrics, I assume you look at kind of ARR, MRR. Right? Like, net new ARR, you know, or ARR net new from, you know, new logo, expansion, renewal. Right? So all this, like, fun stuff on the financial side more. But, like, when you think of the go to market metrics, pipeline coverage sounds like that was one. Yeah. Any other metrics you looked at?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. And, I mean, it really goes back to what type of motion you're running, of course. We were very inbound driven. So something we obviously looked at is top of funnel conversion rates, because that was a very good indicator of kind of the downstream effect on bookings. So that would be both, you know, volume in terms of number of bookings, but also then conversion into first meeting and accepted opportunities. So that was typically also one of those focus areas, which just because it was really important to our go to market motion. So how many meetings are actually happening, and then how do they convert into a qualified opportunity? Yeah. And then, obviously, right, like, you look at the kind of closed won. You look at pipeline coverage.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because that's — I mean, also depending on how frequently you look at certain KPIs, that obviously then becomes kind of the leading indicator for what does the pipeline coverage look like and what kind of opportunities do we have to actually close.

Kristina Kardell: So that's kind of how we were thinking about it.

Janis Zech: Okay. Awesome. And then let's lead into this, you know, wonderful, easy meeting. I mean, I assume if you are, like, so aligned and you have all these different things well set up, then the QBR should be a lot easier than if you meet once a quarter and, you know, nobody knows each other and it's like the first time and you're sitting there. How long is a QBR? How do you prepare it? Like, let's go through it.

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I will be very honest also saying that it's a format that we continuously tweaked. Because I think it's also one of those things that you also have very good intentions, things come up as with any meeting. So I think it's also something that, you know, you continuously kind of, you know, reflect, tweak, adjust. So I just wanna preface that. But we usually did these sessions around ninety minutes to like sometimes two hours if we felt like there were really big topics we needed to discuss for the upcoming quarter. So it was a bit fluid. We, as in RevOps, always prepared, you know, the written actual QBR with the metrics, the summary of, you know, the initiatives, what had been going on in the quarter. We ask the respective functions to summarize their learnings, results, etcetera. That format, I would say, we also played around with a little bit in terms of how extensive we wanted that to be. But we also thought it was really important to actually bring in the reflections from the team. So it's not just go to market leadership reflecting in the QBR. And then we, as in RevOps, would try to summarize, hey, this is actually where we should be focusing. You know, results that were off, initiatives that didn't go as planned, that were maybe pushed, we would bring into the session so that we could have a productive discussion. And then we would review what are the goals for the upcoming quarter and the initiatives that we had already set out. Does this hold true given what we just looked at in terms of learnings and results? Do we need to adjust anything? Do we need to add anything? Or, like, can we continue on with these priorities?

Janis Zech: Yeah. Awesome. And who attended those?

Kristina Kardell: It was the go to market leadership and also finance.

Janis Zech: Okay. But frontline managers typically not there?

Kristina Kardell: Typically not. We tried a little bit different versions. I think that there's benefits in both. I mean, the bigger the group, the more difficult it can be to have productive discussions. But on the other hand, you also have, you know, tighter conversations. So we tried both having them join the session, but then also having the prep rather being the VP with the managers, and then kind of the VP being the voice into the go to market leadership. So I think it also depends a lot on the size of your organization and if that's actually feasible. But obviously, it's super important to make sure that then this pre alignment happens between the VP and the frontline managers so that you keep your ear close to the frontline.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I have a few, like, random questions maybe just going through this. Like, did you then share the QBR deck with everybody in the company or with a specific group that didn't attend the QBR? Or was that not done?

Kristina Kardell: Yeah. So the numbers we typically shared. The strategic initiatives, we would share a condensed version to say this is the focus for the upcoming quarter. So that people are kind of aware of, you know, which are kind of like big initiatives that are running. And we would just do it condensed just to reduce noise, basically.

Janis Zech: Yeah. And what did you learn about, like, kind of how to run a good meeting? Right? Like, you've been in various different meetings with different stakeholders. And I think we've all been in these meetings where it can be challenging. And emotions might overtake. And so I'm curious — I think that's obviously a cultural topic — how do you run a good meeting? Like, what do you think is important?

Kristina Kardell: I mean, I think for me, and it might be also just me personally, a lot of it comes back to having a strong, like, pre alignment of what is the purpose of this meeting, what's the agenda, what is the, you know, maybe preparation in terms of information, numbers, etcetera. Because if you have that spelled out explicitly, I at least find it a lot easier to, if, you know, the conversation derails and discussion derails, to, you know, kind of wheel people back in and say, hey, no, this is actually not what we're supposed to be talking about right now. So you're kind of doing yourself a favor by being as clear as possible already going in, like setting those parameters. Then obviously reality happens and it is very tricky, you know, especially, you know, end of the quarter, you have deals or maybe your, you know, VP wants to talk to your CEO about being an exec sponsor or, you know, things happen. Sometimes you just have to take a breath and let them talk and then kind of come back. But a little trick that I also found very helpful was actually this forty five minute duration that we talked about earlier. Because then you can also say, hey, no, we actually like, we don't have time for this right now, but you have this like little fifteen minute break after, you can just stay on the call. So that's a pretty good trick because almost no one will schedule an actual meeting in those fifteen minutes. So it's like a simple way to buy yourself some time.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And especially if someone, you know, like you realize there's like, you know, six, seven people in the room and this is a one on one discussion. Right? And everybody else is like getting anxious about this because they're all busy. Yeah. They don't want to sit there and listen to something that's very irrelevant to them. Yeah. Any other tricks or tips you want to share?

Kristina Kardell: I mean, I think those are the most important ones. And I think for yourself, really continuously through the meeting also summarize, you know, okay, we started this discussion because we wanted to make a decision on X. And it sounds now like we're all agreeing on ABC. Is that correct? So that you're really like explicitly making sure that you're actually accomplishing what you set out to do, which also