Janis Zech: Welcome to another episode of the RevOps Lab. We're here with Hassan Irshad. I hope I pronounced this correctly. Welcome, Hassan.

Hassan Irshad: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Janis Zech: Yeah. It's great to have you. You came via recommendations, so expectations are super high.

Hassan Irshad: No. I understand. But wow. It can only get better from here.

Janis Zech: We have a fantastic topic today. We're going to talk about partner ops, a topic that is often neglected. I mean, you talk to, you know, scaled SaaS companies, I think, you know, if you look at the stats, I mean, a good twenty to forty percent sometimes of pipeline generation is done via partners, channels, however you want to call them. And we're going to dissect this from an ops perspective. So really excited about this. Philipp and I also jokingly said that we have no clue about the topic, so we're going to learn and ask a lot of questions today.

Philipp Stelzer: Not jokingly. Not jokingly. So it's a bit like the theoretic view on partner ops today from our perspective. But before we dive in, maybe you can do a quick introduction then let's get started.

Hassan Irshad: Absolutely. Yeah. No. First of all, thank you for having me. I've listened to this podcast a lot, so I really like the format where we dive deeper and people can actually get some insights out of it. And it's a great topic, like you mentioned, no lesser talked about. So first of all, like, who am I? I'm Hassan Irshad. I'm a founder and CEO of RevInfinity, which is a revenue operations consulting firm. But my background in revenue operations goes a little further. I've been in revenue operations for almost ten years, starting from sales operations and a natural progression because I was working at a startup. So they had no resource for marketing operations, no resource for CX operations, and again, no resource for partner operations. So I naturally fell into revenue operations. And from there onwards, I've worked at organizations post IPO as well as startup scale up and built out the motions from ground up. Hence, I can speak to how I have developed those motions. So thank you for having me and it should be a fun conversation.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for joining. So maybe let's dive in with the first question. What is partner operations?

Hassan Irshad: Of course. Yeah. No. It's great. So like you mentioned, I wanna touch up on how partner operations itself is a relatively more lesser known branch of revenue operations. So I always see it as revenue operations because it's a revenue generating function. So it should be part of the ecosystem where you have sales ops, marketing ops, CX ops, and partner ops. And just like sales ops or marketing ops or any other ops that's sales in as a branch, partner operations is basically designing, building, managing, and optimizing your partner ecosystem. How does that work? So who's working on the optimization of the operations of that? And that can include the key pillars of RevOps, like you have process, you have your systems, you have your data, you have an enablement and people. Managing all of those key pillars is part of revenue sorry, partner operations. And the way I've built it is like it covers a lot of the key principles and hits all that. And it's a revenue multiplier in my view. And happy to double click on that.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I mean, maybe so I love the definition, very structured. And I'm curious, like, why do you think does it matter and maybe also even more today?

Hassan Irshad: Yeah. Absolutely. So, interestingly, has happened and we've all witnessed is like there's a market shift in how buyers buy in a B2B SaaS model today. So the reality is the buyer right now is much more informed out there. They're sometimes making decisions before they're even actually coming to you in an ecosystem. All that, and there's an overload of information with AI models. You feed it to LLM like, hey, I wanna do this and this and you are overloaded with like ten different options, everyone's prospecting you in. So what matters in that environment is a trusted source, right, with companies are going out and finding those trusted source to validate their pain, but also solutions. So if the it's happening a lot of the buyer journey is happening outside of your control. As a company, how do you get the competitive advantage there when it's out of your control using your partnership ecosystem to get there? Right? So I think like it's very, very important these days to to get that, a, because of the shift in the market. For businesses, it's important to do scale and efficiently scale. Partner ecosystem can actually tap into a lot of, I would say, newer channels for you for revenue. It can speed up a lot of the sales cycles that you're actually doing, especially Alan, give some of the numbers on how I've implemented at Fundraise Up, which is a company, which is a larger partner ecosystem, and we got some amazing results out of that. And it also gives you a competitive advantage over your competitors. Right? So one of the things that I what we said, like partners is a channel that has been there forever. But what was there before was a chaotic collection of relationships out there. Right? And people were like, yes, we have partners doing this. Now apply the revenue operations optimization onto that. What do you bring? Bring structure to the chaos. If you have an organized revenue engine that is partner led and you move towards that. So at Fundraise Up, I had the opportunity to actually design it from complete scratch. It was an industry, a nonprofit industry, and it's a fintech that does donation processing from nonprofits, right, in a much more advanced manner. But it's a legacy industry, so how do you convince people like, hey, AI can help you in donation processing. Like, the partner ecosystem was immensely important there. Right? So but how who's who's leading that? Who's who's making sure that we're optimizing that? Who has the process, the data, the systems? Well, how do you approach that to make sure, you know, you're hitting goals? So at Fundraise Up, our partner team had a quota, hit hundred and twenty five percent of their targets. Again, just like you're helping any of the functions in sales ops, RevOps, you're helping partner ops hit their quota as RevOps. And our ACVs for any partner attached to you were thirty percent higher than our standard deals, which is a decent number. Right? And then the sales cycles were twenty percent faster because already there's a trusted source. You're already cutting the noise there and saying like, hey, like, you know, let's look at this as your solution. And another case study was done on LeanData. So LeanData, I think has around twenty percent faster cycles when they have partner influence deals. And we'll go into, like, how how the metrics are tracked there as well.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's truly fascinating. Think, especially with the example of a nonprofit. Coincidentally, Fundraise Up is a customer of ours. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, actually. But, for me, it's a surprise. So good to hear. And I think with a nonprofit, right, like, so like, just thinking about, like, the Salesforce ecosystem. Right? So, for example, you know, okay. Then as an account executive at Salesforce, I know, okay, if I'm selling, like, a nonprofit license to, like, this nonprofit company, hey. Why don't I just, like, sell Fundraise Up with that, you know, sitting inside of Salesforce? And then, you know, that's, like, an easy way to increase my my personal quota and, like, my my quota attainment and the overall commissions that I can I can get? And I think this is also the the beauty of the the the partnership programs that you can develop is basically, like, you can find partners who are, like, in a much better position than you are to act from a place of trust and, you know, like, you know, it's just, like, knowledge and confidence to recommend your solution, like, for example, Fundraise Up to a potential prospect, and then they trust you and, you know, like the whole sales cycle speeds up and so on. I think like, you know, maybe thinking outside of nonprofit, what do you think is like a good signal or starting point when to know, like, okay, my company, my business is ready to engage in this whole topic of building up like a partner program and thinking about, you know, yeah, partner ops. Like, do you have like some ideas of, you know, when that would be a good point?

Hassan Irshad: Yeah. So I would say like very similar to like if you have a go to market motion with sales, right? When do you start looking at supplying the same three d? When do you start looking at optimization of this? Yes, it's generating a little bit of revenue. I wanna power this. So the way I look at it is like, so you have a funnel, right? Partner ecosystem almost sits at the side of the funnel, powers the entire funnel, right? Because it's an ecosystem. It's not like a singular linear function, right? So what you're trying make sure is like, if you have a go to market motion, you have a partner operations need there because you wanna make sure you tap into it. And good example is like, if you look at companies like Clay, it's a series A, just raises a series A. Right? So Clay has expanded his partner motion to a next level. And that supercharges their go to market, trying to find competitor advantage versus your market. It's always there. The need is always there. When do you need us? Of course, going back to when do you hire RevOps? When do you hire sales ops? I would apply the same kind of basically methodology to partner operations as well.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Great. And and what kind of partnership models are there? And is there one that you think like this is a good one to begin with? Or this one is for the professionals, don't do it in the beginning, like wait a little bit until you're ready for it.

Hassan Irshad: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say like there are various types of partnerships that you can build out. Right? It's also from the operation side, of course, you're making sure the process data and everything there. But let's take a step back there on like, because again, going back to why RevOps needs to be strategic and not only tactical, right? Taking a step back, what kind of partners are there, right, to start with? And you have yourself as channel partners, right? Similar to like, so I'm in consulting, like I could partner with a technology partner and kind of like, you know, be that trusted source that we talked about, bringing those in. You can be a technology partner. So let's take an example of like Salesforce and DocuSign. Like you have an integration, maybe you have a co selling budget, you have an API documentation, you have a lot of those things kind of, so you're a technology partner. Then another area is like, you can be a strategic alliance, you can go one step further. You have co marketing budgets. Like now you're doing a lot of that heavy lifting together in the buyer journey. And then you have referrals, which is standard like duh. Like you create leads, you have a UTM code that tracks what leads come from you and you refer them and then you get your compensation for that. So there's a few different ones. I think it entirely depends on what type of business you're in, for example, right? So for Fundraise Up, we had a lot of integration partners because going back to Salesforce is a CRM. If you are a CRM in nonprofit space, can be that technology partner that says we have an integration with Salesforce, please use us and Salesforce does that and you have like some sort of like, revenue basically splits between that. So again, going back to what is good for your business will depend on like when RevOps starts thinking strategically and double down on that.

Janis Zech: Got it. Yeah, I would assume most small businesses start with referral programs because that's super easy to set up and then step by step build more things out, but of course, if you start with a big venture funded company and your goal is to win an enterprise, then of course, referrals will only get you that far. So probably maybe not the best place to start.

Hassan Irshad: Absolutely.

Janis Zech: So when you build out, like, you know, a partner ops motion, like, how do you start? Like, where do you start? Like, how do how do these processes look like? Like one thing for me, for example, like one question top of mind that I would have right in the beginning would be like, okay, how do I even calculate like the commission that they're getting? That I can build this house in like a scalable way, you know?

Hassan Irshad: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the way we have to approach it is, again, going back to if you started attribution model. So you're like, okay, how do you comp marketing? We know that it's like a big debate and gray area sometimes for attribution. You're gonna have similar kind of challenges here to kind of get to the point. Like how do you track something that is a partner sourced versus a partner influenced? So of course, as RevOps, I'll put my RevOps hat there, it's absolutely trackable if you have the right systems in place, if you have the right tracking in place in your CRM, then you of course have your PRMs as well. We'll dive in that in a bit. But you're able to kind of create a system where, again, we had no visibility in partnership motion when I was starting to build it, but it can get even referrals by the way. I was gonna touch on that. Even referrals can get very chaotic because it's not just the lead now. You also have to compensate them at the back. So that requires an operation motion. How do you even pay them? And setting that up, I mean, of course there's tooling. You have to put strategy in place, but there's tools and processes that you do. RevOps has to keep it very, very tight there because I almost see it as partners and treat them as like customers. So if they were an outside source, how are you going to basically compensate them? How are you gonna track the ROI? How are you gonna bring that to the leadership and show which partners are your best ROI there? Show the acceleration in the sales cycle, right? And then attributing backwards from there. So we had a very interesting model at Fundraise Up, which was, it's a B2B model that doesn't have contracts. So our attribution model and our compensation model was revenue share. So that of course has its own challenges, but I was able to kind of build out a system where you can just track how much revenue you're making and then partners had a percentage, for example. And within partners, again, going back to if you're RevOps, you're trying to design the system, is partner tiers. You can have a bronze level partner that is on a certain percentage, a gold level that you know it has the high ROI, has been there accelerating sales cycles. So kind of building towards that, I would say the key pillars around there for partner operations as you're building this is how do you onboard them? Because these are partners that you need to have an ecosystem. You're not gonna run on like five partners. You may have one hundred. Actually we did have more than one hundred at Fundraise Up. So having that, like how do you onboard? Your goal is basically speed to value for partners. You wanna make sure partners are actually getting that information on hand. There's enablement, you have to train them of course because they're linked to your product, they're representing your brand as well, especially for channel partners. You wanna make sure they have the enablement resources. You wanna do performance tracking. Again, what we talked about, like, you know, ROI there. And then incentives are based on that, but you have to manage the incentives. Just like RevOps will manage comp for a sales team. It's a we had exactly a similar motion, but like, you know, applied to external partners there.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I mean, one thing I would assume is that there's an ideal partner profile, right, like, that you need to learn and find over time. And then that probably also has a lot to do with kind of how you onboard and enable them. Right? So I'm curious, let's assume the performance tracking and the incentives kind of work. How do you learn your ideal partner profile?

Hassan Irshad: Yeah, so again, similar how you would do your ideal customer profile, right? You have to basically look at your industry, you look at your channels. So for example, going back to Clay, for example, right? So for them, integration partners, technology partners seems to be their ideal partner fit, right? Versus every seller, right? Now what they're gonna do is like, they see the, of course data dictates everything. So you can see ROI is coming in the way you were going to work on like, okay, ACVs are hitting higher because of this. You're gonna narrow down and say like, even though we have the ecosystem, this is our ideal partner. We're gonna double down on this, create a motion, RevOps is gonna power anything from enablement, comp, or process there, but also come back and show, is it working? Like you're constantly revisiting them, you're making sure new partners are signing up. So I would say, yeah, of course, I don't wanna say like the classic drive off answer, it depends, but kind of does.

Janis Zech: That's also okay here, you can say that.

Hassan Irshad: Yeah. But but but I I like to go a little further always. It's like, it depends, leaves a lot of things in the air, but I always go back. It's like, are you hitting the core pillars? Like, if you're hitting the core pillars, then ambiguity becomes a little bit more structured. So yeah, just wanted to touch upon that.

Janis Zech: I mean, I've talked to various kind of companies that have scaled partner programs and one thing that they bring up is almost like a product market fit, right? So when you have an offering that really works super well, that then it's almost like it's just it's just super successful. And so, for example, right, like, there's a company in Berlin. It's called Paloa. They have a very successful partnership with Accenture, and they implement them throughout the world, basically. Right? And there's no way that at the scale the company is at, they could have done that in the speed with their own in house sales team. So they basically become their sales team, very well trained. And then I would say, like, the sales is basically customer success or account management because Accenture already sits in all these massive enterprises. They know their requirements. They know their problems, and they can basically apply that technology against problems they see in their existing. So it's beautiful basically.

Hassan Irshad: And I hundred percent agree. And I was gonna say, in your point, when you have a product market fit in that world, it's almost like used analogy, you're riding a wave. So all you have to do is maintain your balance and partner ops helps you kinda like do a little multiplier on it. Right? So you're you're stabilized with the Accenture level partner and then you're multiplying that. You're like, hey. Now open up whole network effect here of whatever Accenture is linked to and tapping into those. So I know that's a great point that you mentioned.

Janis Zech: I mean, I am wondering, right, like, so I think it goes back to a bit like the, you know, there's, like, community led, which is more like a referral, almost like an affiliate program. Right? I I think Chili Piper has done, for example, a fantastic job there. Right? Like, basically having a huge community around them and driving awareness, but then also leads. And then also, I assume that there's like a referral models against that. I know for sure that there's referral models against that. Right? So I think that's on the one end of the spectrum. The other maybe end of the spectrum is like an alliance partnership with AWS or Google Cloud. So it's like basically the two ends of the spectrum. I'm I'm super curious, like, in your experience, right, the enablement piece, because that's really crucial in my mind. Like, that part of the partner ops program? Like, is enablement is is it part of the team typically? Does that is that actually the job of what you would say the partnership managers? Yeah. I'm I'm super curious how you how you think about that.

Hassan Irshad: Yeah. No. That's a that's that's a that's a great pillar you're touching upon is like and especially as you scale. Right? Enablement becomes key. Like, I'll keep going back into the sales analogy because it's easier for people to understand, right? If you have like a twenty sales AEs and now you're at a hundred, without enablement, you cannot scale. You wanna bring that back again and again. So if you have a partner system that starts from five to fifty, enablement is a pillar that needs to be there. A lot of times sits outside, but I like to make sure it is part of revenue operations. And if not, you're working very closely with them. Partnership managers, yes, they are maintaining and bringing in that content and making sure it's happening. RevOps job is making sure that content is reaching the partners in a sophisticated manner. So PRMs, for example, the one we were using was PartnerStack. So PartnerStack itself inside has enablement resources that you can actually give to the partners.

Philipp Stelzer: Sorry, what's PRMs?

Hassan Irshad: Well, it's almost like CRM. So it's like partnership relationship kind of like software where you are managing. So this kind of almost sits like side by side for your CRM where you are actually saying, hey. This is where I onboard partners. Onboarding partners has a pipeline, for example, has has own stages. Like, I'm gonna do this, this, and signed a contract, and now I'm there. But within that with and PartnerStack is a great one that we were using. It has a very robust integration with Salesforce. So the way I had built it is like partners there could get visibility on, hey. I sent this lead. What happened to that? Right? And that's that's your parallel connection in sync with your partnership software that's actually showing, hey, you sent this lead, and now we closed one that. So you're gonna do that. But also, just like a CRM system, this is actually doing a few more things. Right? You're enabling partner, but you can also do compensations, for example. So you're saying like, hey. You sold x y z for this and this. Here's your percentage. Here's the balance, and you can clear it using some one of those systems. So it covers a lot of the core pillars that you will and RevOps has to manage it. Right? So again, going back to just your managing CRM, you're managing this and enabling partnership managers to use it for your end customers and the partners are also your end customers. You're making sure there's a seamless, frictionless experience there. And there's other pieces of technology too.

Philipp Stelzer: Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, actually I think that might be like a good segue to also talk about some of the challenges I think you can easily run into with building up a good partner program. So, I mean, not everything always goes well. And, I mean, I think I think we've we've all been there. So I'm curious if you could share some common roadblocks that you've seen in the past and, you know, maybe some, like, tips, best practice on how to avoid them so that you don't even have to learn from your mistakes there in the beginning.

Hassan Irshad: Hundred percent. And we learned it like because we were relatively newer partner ops function, learned it and I traded from, you know, learning it the hard way. So so one of the core challenges were the misalignment that can happen between sales and partners. Like for example, there could be a channel conflict. There could be a lack of trust with a PM that's working with another partner, there could be lack of visibility, right? Again, going back to leadership says like, okay, partners says everything's working great, where are the numbers to back it? That of course opens up a whole lot of problems for our ops is like in the lack, there's data challenges that are coming in, how you're tracking and attributing your ROI. Scalability becomes the problem. Again, if you don't, if you have clunky portals, partners are logging in, they're not able to see information. It's not a frictionless experience. Data is not integrated between your PRMs and CRMs, now it's like all a mess. So key challenge again, like going back to how do you fix these is like having a very robust rigorous process built by RevOps saying like, if you have misalignment, do you have the rules of engagement there? Do you have those published, well understood? And we built this out, for example, we learned very quickly that people do attach partners in Salesforce on a deal. Sometimes people backfill partners, right? It's like, hey, I was working with this partner. Now in the lack of a process, that's very, very challenging for you to actually see in time if the partners are actually you know, moving the deal. Is there accountability? You can go and, like, fill in a partner after deal is closed or at the onboarding stage. Is that the right way to track it? So one of the areas that we did was, going back into RevOps can go into like, I'll go a little bit in detail here. It's, like, you can build out a validation rule saying, like, you cannot attach partner if it's after stage four, for example. Right? And now you're putting in controls as RevOps and you're actually tracking also at what stage does partner get attached. So you're getting that high level data. It's like, okay, I see at this stage when we involve the partners, a thirty percent sales cycle is faster. So yeah, key challenges will always be how sales and marketing has attribution challenges, partners has very similar. The other one that stands out a lot is like lack of visibility is so apparent sometimes if you don't have the right systems. This is where another tool that I wanted to touch upon is like Crossbeam. I don't know if you've heard of Crossbeam. So Crossbeam is beautiful tool. What it does is like it takes your partner's ecosystem, Salesforce or whatever CRM, and shows you the overlap between your system and their system. So you I can go in and I can say like, okay. Amazon has a Crossbeam and I have Snowflake's. I can see Snowflake's prospect. I can try to say like, okay, salesperson is like reaching out to their partner at AWS and or the other round. And they're like, hey, let's co sell or do this. But with the lack of visibility, you can't do that. So one challenge is, like, do your sales team use it at at the right time? Do they even have that visibility? So we created this, for example, on almost like in a first opportunity stage. It's like, hey, do you have a check? Like, what are the partner overlaps here? Engage with your partnership manager here who can engage with your contact and then you can start again, like as a salesperson, why won't you if it will give you an extra push, ACVs are higher, sales cycle are smaller, it's a win win. So those are challenges that it's like you wanna make sure RevOps is like catering for.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I I feel like a lot of them actually are are rooted like, of these challenges are rooted also in, like, transparency issues. Like, a use case that we just had recently was, like, basically, you know, Weflow does activity capture of emails and meetings, and then a customer wants it to integrate the partnership program there so that, like, the emails and meetings that they would have relating to deals that are relevant for them would then flow into the CRM and so on. Because and and long story short, right? Because of, like, trust issues and, you know, just creating more transparency around it, which I think is totally understandable. Like, you know, like, from my point of view, like, the first thing I'd be afraid of would be, like, that the partners are like making promises that, you know, it's like hard to keep, for example. Then you have like a misalignment and like people are disappointed after the implementation phase is over or things like this.

Hassan Irshad: Absolutely, and that's enablement comes in place there as well. You want to train the partner to not do that. And like, here's the rules of engagement. You can say X, Y, Z using this one pager, but you can say this. And I face this like every day in consulting, right? Like it's like I have partners, but like, I can't speak on behalf of partner for something, something X, Y, Z, but I can do if my pointers are there and approach someone like that. So, yeah, no, I think that's a great point you're touching upon.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. I think maybe one thing to add here. Like, obviously, if you're doing a referral, right, it's almost like an SDR function. Right? Like, okay. They basically do an introduction, and then sales takes over. It doesn't really have a big impact on compensation. Right? Like, sales get similarly compensated. But then let's assume channel and sales is there. Right? And channel sales and implements and sales is there and implements and CS is also there and implements. Right? And suddenly, there's a trust issue. Right? Because if channel sales sells the deal, then sales doesn't get compensated. Right? So I think that's that's a really tricky one. Any any tips there that, like, how to how to solve that?

Hassan Irshad: Absolutely. So I think as RevOps and that's a great point. Right? So the the lack of trust starts from there. You wanna avoid finger pointing like, hey, who's stalling the deal here? Am I gonna get it fairly comped here if there are more people on the deal? So as a well designed RevOps system, I would say strategy matters here on how people are comped. So you don't wanna create a zero sum game for anyone. Right? You don't wanna create an incentive that like, hey, if you attach a partner, you're gonna get comped less. Or the same way if so so what we had is like your opportunity team. Right? So if in opportunity team, you can attach a PM that does not affect your comp. Right? That it doesn't affect like it only accelerates the deal. So if you show that incentive from the start as architecture design of the composition, that allows people to ease that. Like, hey, there is trust, but we're trying to hit this as a team. So it's the same way you approach, you have a solutions architect, you have an SDR, you have an AE, you have a PM. They're all working towards the same goal without stepping on each other's toes. But yeah, numerous organizations that don't do it well. And that's where I'm like always playing my part in showing the light here. Like if you're actually approaching as a team there without creating that zero sum game, you're gonna win much faster versus competition.

Philipp Stelzer: Just one follow-up question on that topic. So like, if I have a partner and let's say the partner gets, like, fifteen percent and the seller gets fifty percent, that's, like, thirty percent. Right? Like, is that something that's common? Or is there if a partner's involved as a seller, you might get ten percent and maybe, you know, the partner also gets a little bit less because it's like a co deal. But maybe the overall spend on that deal is a bit higher, but it's not fully loaded the same amount. I was just curious, how is that typically handled?

Hassan Irshad: Yeah, know that's a very good point. I think it entirely depends on how much you wanna incentivize people to use your partnership channel once you know the ROI is higher. So you're like, okay, ROI is higher. Let's say if you and we had this as well, that we were like, hey, if there is a partner deal that you're working on, your comp is we bake that in, right? If you're like, okay, your comp is instead of getting ten percent of the deal, you're getting twelve point five percent of the deal. So you can again, you wanna incentivize in the right way, but yeah, to your point, of course there's a pot there that you wanna do. But the numbers eventually dictated that our ACV was thirty percent higher when we involved the partners. So yeah, the average deal size is going up. The pie is getting larger overall and you're actually winning the deals. So again, volume is there. So I would say what it helps is all the key levers of your volume, velocity, and your conversion as well. So all three pillars is actually moving much, much faster. And overall, if you show that incentive and run a forecast on like, hey, if you were able to close fifty partnership deal versus fifty regular deal, here's how the comp looks like at the end of the year. I think there's no better argument than data. So I always try to use that. But yeah, that's a great point. Like it does create a question there that again, I feel like RevOps can answer.

Philipp Stelzer: That's super insightful. Thank you for sharing that. I think it will be helpful for many, many people thinking about this topic now. And maybe to round things off, do you have like some