Janis Zech: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the RevOps Lab. Today, we're here with Tiffany Gonzalez. I hope I pronounced this correctly. Great to have you. Really excited about the pod.

Tiffany Gonzalez: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. It's one of those topics that's dear to my heart, I must say.

Janis Zech: But before we dive into the topic, who are you? What do you do?

Tiffany Gonzalez: Yes. That's a big question. I ask myself that every day. Fundamentally, what I do is I help drive revenue. Right? If you think about my background, I think like a lot of revenue operator leaders, we've all started in sales historically, which is where I had my start in B2B enterprise sales for the first decade or so of my life. And then I kept seeing problems in the sales process that were just not getting solved. And so I chose to make a career transition into what today is called revenue operations. Although back then, we were using different words. We were using sales ops or business ops. And over the last ten, fifteen years, there's really been this really great codification of revenue ops as a practice, which is where I am today. Professionally, my background has predominantly been in big tech. Although within those big tech companies like AWS, Amazon, Coupang, etcetera, I've traditionally been in startup areas inside of these big companies. And that sounds a little odd, but it creates some really interesting constraints where we're very creative in a different way than a founder led startup itself. So that's a little bit about me. I'm located in Austin, Texas. So for those of you listening that are coming this direction, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn and love to grab a cup of coffee or connect when possible.

Janis Zech: Awesome. So the topic for today is revenue moments that matter. So maybe let's kick off. Can you define revenue moments that matter? It's maybe not a term that everybody's familiar with. And why you think it's critical for driving revenue.

Tiffany Gonzalez: Yeah. Absolutely. So moments that matter or revenue moments that matter, I also call them leading indicators of retention. As you can tell, that's probably why I call it moments that matter. It's a little more catchy. But LIR is what I call it when I put it on a spreadsheet, just because it's easier to fit in the fields. But revenue moments that matter, the moments that matter, those leading indicators of retention are activities and behavior that customers undertake that create understanding of value within your solution. And this is not value that you hope that they are learning from your marketing communications. This is not value aligned to a sales motion. This is very simply when a customer does a certain behavior within a certain period of time, this result happens reliably, right? Typically seventy to eighty percent of the time is what you're trying to aim towards. What that allows you to do is really focus your organizational efforts on creating and driving customers towards those moments that matter. And it's, I know a little bit abstract when I speak about it in kind of this very broad context, but it's also one of those things that is unique to each company. And it's also unique to a product or a service offering and unique to a sales motion, right? Depending on how you want to build a sales motion and accrue that within your organization. Whether you're a full PLG led company or you have hybrid PLG and sales led, or you're predominantly an enterprise seller, how you instrument those moments that matter inside of your company are quite different.

Janis Zech: It reminds me very much of an episode we recorded with Daphne Costa Lopez, and she talked about this concept of value creation. Right? Like, and that the retention starts with that. And I think we all know this situation where, I mean, you won the new logo, but then the real action starts. So, I mean, maybe before we jump into kind of the details of all this, because we're going to go into the details as always, you know, what inspired you to focus on these moments and, like, how did you even come up with it? Right. Like, initially, because I think this is something that in our first conversation, you mentioned you've been carrying around for a long time already, and you've been actually operationalizing it at various different places. So, yeah, curious, like, how you first came up with it.

Tiffany Gonzalez: Well, I'd jokingly say it was, for me, the only obvious thing to do, right? That everything else seemed too abstract. And the reason why I say that is, as I have been part of these startup businesses inside of big companies, the benefit of startups inside of large enterprises are the resources that we have available to us. Right? We have a data system that we don't have to build from scratch. There are tools and systems that we can leverage that make running the business easier. Right? But then the counterpoint to that is any new startup inside of these large corporations, the expectation to scale immediately and to very, very large dollar amounts is real. Right? Where we don't have a two or three year runway, we have a six month to a twelve month runway. Otherwise, you know, the potential or the likelihood of that getting axed is very real. And so what that really caused us to do is to really focus on how do we create proof points that shows that even though we know churn and retention, depending on what product you're selling, is twelve, eighteen, twenty four, thirty six months in the future, how do we create confidence not just of our stakeholders, but of the direction of our business that that end result will become true, right? Because things like revenue are lagging indicators. Churn is a lagging indicator, right? Even CAC ratios, all of those types, they're all functionally lagging indicators. Right? Because this is a backwards look at your business. And so we really focused on what can we measure and what can we build towards that helps us drive that forward. And that was really what inspired us because I have been in circumstances where organizations have gone through change management or have tried to reinvigorate their sales process and failed because it was not focused on a customer value driven approach and the actions and activities were not on the value that the customers truly realized.

Janis Zech: Got it. Okay. I really like this. I mean, sometimes you just need to take some — I mean, it is a very complicated thing. Right? Like, to capture such a moment, to push through such a moment. I think sometimes you just need to have those abstracts. Like, actually, it's not so abstract, but these frameworks that help you understand and comprehend and to talk about it and also to get the rest of the organization on your side. So you all start to speak the same language of, like, how you think about it and what to actually do about it as well. And I think, especially this part of, like, reinventing a sales process, that feels like a very critical moment where something like a revenue moment would be extremely useful to make sure everything goes in the right direction. But what I'm curious about is, like, how do you actually get to that? Like, how do you determine that? So, when is a revenue moment really like a revenue moment that matters in acquiring new logos and retaining existing customers, expanding current customers? How do you approach that?

Tiffany Gonzalez: With a lot of curiosity and a lot of experimentation. I will just say, patience is probably a good one to throw in there too. But what I have found is that your customers and your salespeople probably already know the answer. And it is one of those areas where as a revenue leader, you need to go talk to your salespeople, talk to your customers, talk to the executives, and have open ended conversations and be intellectually honest about what they're saying. Right? Don't have an agenda of what you hope they will say when you walk in, but truly be curious about what they love and what they don't love about their product, about your product. Right? You're gonna get a lot of feedback. And they're gonna say, you know, depending on what the situation is — and this is an example of when I was in South Korea at Coupang — they would say, oh, we don't get our settlements quickly enough. Coupang, for those people that aren't familiar, it's a Korean ecommerce company. I was GM of the marketplace, the third party part of the organization. So my sales cycle there was B2B sales. Right? And I was selling to everywhere from small businesses to enterprise businesses, helping them leverage the marketplace ecommerce platform to run and operate and sell their goods. We got a lot of feedback around, oh, we want our money faster. We want this faster. We want that faster. We want all of these things faster. And when we really started kind of peeling away the onion and hearing that from multiple angles, the problem that they were expressing to us was not that reimbursements or payments were not fast enough. What they were explaining to us in different words was they wanted to make more money and they wanted it to be predictable. Right? And so what we became, you know, learned and learned to understand was, ah, as people are onboarding to the platform, we need them to be able to be successful with onboarding. Right? So yes, check, they've registered, but that doesn't — I mean, that's the first step. It doesn't really matter. We need them to create a listing. Okay, that's the next step. Then that listing has to get a certain sale, just any sale within a period of time. And then in order to really get that customer super excited, you have to cross a threshold within a period of time. And so instead of us just releasing more tools and more widgets and various things like that, we really focused on what does that business owner need to understand about our platform so that they are successful in as short of time as possible. And that really changed how we focused not only our engineering development, but our sales motions, changed how we interacted with our customers, and that is really what kind of inspired this further deep dive across so much of our business.

Janis Zech: But is this something that you could also do with, like, just analysis? Like, basically, you look at all the customers, you look at all the interactions that they take, and then you look at the different cohorts. Okay. Cohort one didn't do this. Cohort two didn't do that or did do that. And they achieved like twenty percent more revenue and so on. Right? Like, I think there's like a data driven approach to this.

Tiffany Gonzalez: There is. So you also — so you listen to customers because the listening is what gives you the narrative, right? What you're going to see in the data as you look at it is you're going to see a lot of jumps in revenue. You're going to see periods in time, various things like that. You're not going to have the narrative around why. So these things really have to happen in parallel. Right? You may be able to look at the data and say, something happened at — I'm making it up — but something happened at week eight and that thing happened. What happened? Like, what's different about that customer from somebody else? So you really have to get into that period of listening because that way the narrative around what's happening in the data is specific to the outcome that that customer accomplished. So you can identify, but you still have to lend that equal amount of curiosity.

Janis Zech: I come from, like, a B2C background. That's where I started my career. And, you know, it's like we did that, like, for sure. Right? Like, we developed, like, games, and then we knew your likelihood to turn into, like, a paying customer. So this was premium games. Likelihood to turn to a paying customer was, like, twenty percent higher if you achieved level five or something like this in the first, like, three hours of the game. But there, it was like a super linear path. Right? And what I find in B2B, like, is one of the most challenging things, I think, in terms of, like, product development is that most B2B products or motions, they are, like, not linear. They are, like, multilinear in, like, a crazy kind of way because, like, you know, you can't use a certain product in one way. You can use it in another way. I'm not sure if this would also be true for Coupang, but, like, you know, it's just very complicated to have, like, a linear path that you can follow and make these analyses so easily. So I think, like, the qualitative aspect that you talked about, I think, is extremely important in B2B, to even get, like, an idea of what should you even be looking at in terms of, like, analysis and, yeah, data driven approach.

Tiffany Gonzalez: It is. And the more data you have in your business, the easier it is to, at least at a high level, start to identify specific areas of investigation. But as you know, B2B is not linear. But what's important here is when you think about moments that matter, it's not a linear process that matters. It's a moment that we're trying to drive towards. Right? And so what we really don't mind is what path did somebody take to get there? Like, that's okay. And that really becomes the power that marketing demand generation, you know, whatever you're doing through SEO and SEM and your website and your customer service — like, the customer can take multiple paths to get there. And that is not only understandable, it's preferable. Because then you're meeting the customer where they are. But everybody has understanding that whatever their channel into the business is, that we're trying to get over this precipice, this specific customer experience, because if we get that customer to that point, we're creating and helping them understand value realization. So when you're starting with those leading indicators of retention and you're building your business, yes, big data is in some ways a little bit easier. In some ways it actually makes it much harder because then there's a lot of noise in the signals as well. But I wouldn't say — even just any customer, any business that has ten or more customers, you can go have these conversations, and you can use this methodology to start with the most narrow leading indicator of retention that you can find and build on it. And as your product matures and your business matures, you can expand that definition to create more space as your sales, marketing and operational systems really refine into this process.

Janis Zech: Yeah, I love it. I mean, so it's funny, Philipp, that you mentioned the gaming world because I was thinking of TikTok and what they do to essentially retain creators. Right? And as a creator, right, the general rule is, like, you have one percent creators, three percent engagers, and the rest is basically just lurkers that basically consume. And so the one percent, right, like, in TikTok's case, it's very large, but is a small amount of folks that actually create. And so, you know, when you create your first video, it gets an extra push in the algorithm. So you have this experience that you get a lot of views and you get that regularly to retain the creators because the creators basically are the marketplace side to create good content and you want to encourage them to stay on the platform. Right. The same with YouTube, the same with Facebook and so on. Right. So with Instagram there, the cycle is very short. Right. It's basically measured in sessions. And I think in B2B enterprise, where you have long sales cycles, let's take ServiceNow, ERP, SAP, Salesforce, it's basically the opposite. And so it becomes even more important to understand the value creation process. And I think the interesting thing is, right, you basically look at it holistically from a lens of, okay, the value creation process obviously informs the way you onboard your customers, the way you make them successful, but it actually also informs the sales process. And I had to think of what we do here at Weflow. We accidentally became a quite successful activity capture tool in addition to other things we do, like revenue intelligence and AI note taking and stuff like that. But what we actually do is we encourage pilots because we know once they pilot the tool, they're actually much more likely to see the value and then to convert. Right. So they don't even need to pay anything for it. We know that it's not a free like a product led motion, but we totally encourage that. And I mean, you know, I think it's a win win for everybody because you can actually see the value before you buy. And I think it's just one example of finding that moment that matters. Right. But I think what you're alluding to goes even deeper. Right. Like, because you're basically saying, hey, this is kind of the solution. But then I think from a solution to creating value is even another step up. Right? I'm curious, so you mentioned that you use quantitative methods, you use qualitative methods. Have you had situations where you actually thought this is the right moment and then you realize it's wrong?

Tiffany Gonzalez: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's yes. If you're — I mean, don't mean to say if you're not failing the first half a dozen times you do it, then you're not moving quickly enough. Right? And I think that that would be the thing I would encourage if anybody tries this methodology. I would encourage them to do some of that listening, to look at their data, and this is a refinement process. So even after you find that moment that matters, you have to over time see if that continues to be true. Right? I know for example, in the B2B space, HubSpot and Slack are pretty visible about moments that matter. I know Slack has like a magic number that they talk about, that a user of Slack needs to engage in a certain number of messages per month in order for that team member to be a strong, like, value driven person, right, for that organization. I think HubSpot, if I remember correctly, they talk about this in their blogs as well, which is really great. I love that they share that information. They talk about when somebody logs into HubSpot and they're first using it, it's getting a certain number of interactions. I'm looking at my notes over here. I think it's using five or more features is what they mentioned within a month and getting a customer to that tipping point. And so when we think about those tipping points, maybe a thousand or two messages or using five features every month, this isn't a large number. These are not huge mountains to climb. Very often they are very, very realistic and accessible. But we need to make sure as we're using these kind of leading indicators of retention — and again, I'm saying that's a leading indicator, it's a moment that matters — it is not every moment that matters to a customer's experience. It is not the totality of their experience, but it really is that kind of first moment where that customer is going to stop and say, oh, I really see there's more I need to explore, more I need to learn. I see the value. It looks like this has real potential. Right? It really crosses that tipping point. Right? And when in the B2B SaaS space, my observation is once you get north of seventy percent of customers past that tipping point — so, you know, for HubSpot, it was using five tools a month — seventy to eighty percent, once you get past that tipping point, you really have validation that you're on to a long term leading indicator.

Janis Zech: So let's assume you identified those moments. How do you operationalize it? How do you — both from a tooling perspective, but then also change management perspective — how do you go about it?

Tiffany Gonzalez: Yeah. It's a lot. And what I will say is it's a lot, and it's a journey that's worthwhile. Right? It's also a journey that is iterative. And so the first thing I would say is it's really critical to make sure that you're, as a leader inside of that revenue organization, that you're instilling fail fast and change management and not being perfect. Like, because progress, not perfection is really the goal as you start to instrument this within your business. So the first step would be using leading indicators of revenue, right? Using that and operationally understanding if you, for example, have conviction that X, Y, Z, when a customer does this within this period of time, this occurs, right? You have a leading indicator of retention that you are confident in. Refine that and see how you can drive operationally more customers to accomplish that LIR. Right? And those refinements could be things like marketing messaging. Right? Marketing in different channels, different sales motions, different outbound calls, different qualification questions, various things like that. So you start to dig into — it could be changes to your product that you ask your product and engineering teams to do, right? So you start to dig into this, and you start to make the tweaks to the system without a big overhaul. Make tweaks and you experiment to see what changes are necessary. And if those changes happen, how successful are they? One of the tools that I used was very often I would use my sales team. So I would take five of my top reps and I would give them quota relief for the period. And I'd ask them to work on call scripts and outbounds and qualifying questions. And I'd have them test and iterate on them. Because when we found something that worked really well, we have the confidence of the sales organization to immediately roll those things out. So we were able to deploy it really quickly and effectively at very low cost. And so there's that iteration process. Once you've really dialed up the organization and then really have that LIR firing, right? You're seeing that seventy, eighty percent. That's when you move into really making sure that you have product market fit. And so it's a sequential process, not a parallel process. And I really suggest sequential because product market fit is customers will buy your product, right? They try it, they use it, they buy it. But then the customer has to continue to use it and renew it, right? So like that by definition. So LIR is really dialing in on getting your customers initially seeing that value, right? And then you have to refine your business towards actual product market fit. And so then that means looking at a lot of those other metrics that we all are used to looking at kind of on a more frequent basis. So when you operationalize it, it becomes this really powerful tool to create north stars within your organization that allow everybody to audit against and say, am I helping this or not? And being able to move that in a very methodical way forward to align sales, marketing, CS in these organizations towards a common goal.

Janis Zech: Because you mentioned metrics then to look at. Right? Like, so what are some of these metrics that you would then look at? So once you start to operationalize it, like, how do you continue to continuously, you know, validate that revenue moment? Because I don't know, but I would assume that also sometimes you have revenue moments that turn into non-revenue moments, like, as the product develops. I'm not sure how to call it, but, like, maybe, like, a churn moment even — that's maybe rarer — or maybe you've seen that as well. Curious. Yeah. If you have an example, I would love to hear it.

Tiffany Gonzalez: Yeah. So, I mean, just very real. Right? Because the moment that matters, that leading indicator of retention, is specific to your business, like you get to decide how you measure it. Right? And so one that I mentioned that we had at Coupang was first hill, and this is the things that lead up to that real LIR. The first thing was getting everybody to sign up, right? To sign up and register as a seller on our platform. We had to make that as frictionless as possible, quick as possible. That was the first hurdle. Second hurdle, get the end user to list, create a listing, right? To list a product for sale and make that as frictionless as possible, right? While still ensuring customer quality and end user quality so that as it gets up on the website, it's relevant and it matters. So those were our first two hurdles. And if we got the customers through those first two hurdles, then we were able to track. So we tracked conversion between those two steps like number or quantity inbound. And we were able to see how quickly, based on cohorting, we knew what conversion would happen. And so as we saw different cohorts convert in different ways, that helped us understand where to dig in and where possibly our messaging was not correct, where it was really effective, various things like that to get that customer over that precipice. And so that allowed us in a very tactical operational way to dial into getting our customers to that point. And so that's really what it depends on. If you're HubSpot and they want customers to use five or more features, you could imagine a sales motion that might spin up around that, right? You might see prompts inside of the tool based on specific activity. You might see blogs or things like that that come up that say, hey, this is something that others like you found very valuable, and very help based articles that aren't sales themselves. Right? And so that can be really a motion that fits your business, and that's part of the refinement to get to that over seventy, over eighty percent LIR. Right? That's part of that refinement process.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. I mean, I think your Coupang example, you mentioned initially that they essentially wanted to drive more revenue. Right? So I assume that as a marketplace, you have some sort of algorithm which thing to show. And so you give basically the new listings of new merchants a boost. Right. Which goes very deep in the fundamentals of the general algorithm to basically have them, and then you prioritize them. You could even in theory, right, like, buy from them to make sure that they stay, to expand your marketplace. Right. And I think marketplace is a great example because it's something where people can always leave. Right. They don't need to participate. So it's very different often when you buy software and then you realize it's shelfware. Right. And you can only opt out after twelve or twenty four months. And I think a lot of RevOps folks in the world have been burned by that. Right? Like, suddenly you have a lot of overlapping tools and things. But I think it goes there. I want to add one thing here, Tiffany, if you don't mind.

Tiffany Gonzalez: Sure. In kind of these B2B spaces, you mentioned TikTok, Coupang, we see this on Amazon where there are third party sellers as well. Fairness is also incredibly important. Right? So when you have broad platforms like that, that have end user consumer demand, it's very important to make sure that your algorithms, whatever those are, are not only of course legally compliant to the commercial rules within whatever market you're operating in, but they're creating fairness across the organization. Because if, for example, you're always prioritizing new people on the platform, then those that have established histories are essentially deprioritized. And there's always trade offs. So I would just caution everybody, obviously, to make sure you're legally and regulatory compliant with anything that you do. But consumers are really smart. Right? People are really smart. And they have a strong ability to sense when things are not fair. And so very often, like, I wish that we could pull the magic button and make everybody have sales, but it really depended on quality of product that they provided. It really depended on the quality of the business and service that they provided. So it was a lot of us helping teach these businesses how to be effective ecommerce companies so that they could be effective. And very often those companies had never been online before. So it's important to really think through those things because, you know, we would all love to pull that technology lever to like, boom, make it explode. But doing the good work in that way really creates momentum and scale that is repeatable. And so that would be the thing that I would wanna kinda add there.

Janis Zech: Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I think so I have a long history with marketplaces actually, and I think it is not just the supply side, right? It's also the demand side that needs to be happy about the experience. Right. And I think if you look at Amazon Marketplace, you don't stay as a merchant. So it's always a balancing act. Right. So and I think most marketplaces go through this like over demand, oversupply, over demand, oversupply. Right. So you have to somehow balance it. It's very hard to balance. And initially, right, like you treat things differently than maybe later. Right. So, like, I think when you get started with TikTok or so, you want kind of the person who makes one million dollars by just being a TikTok creator, right, gets celebrated a lot. And then five years later, there's actually hundreds that make millions. And, you know, then it's more in the hundreds of millions. Right? And so I think that's like — I think it's super fascinating. I totally got off track here. Philipp, can you back into the structure?

Janis Zech: So maybe last question on this topic. I think we could probably spend a lot more time on this. But what are some challenges you've been, you know, observing when looking and identifying those moments that matter?

Tiffany Gonzalez: Broadly, what I will say is this methodology feels very often — and I'm gonna use that F word — it feels at times very ambiguous. And it potentially feels scary. And I say that because we all walk into our areas of expertise, whether you're in demand marketing, or a sales leader, or a sales operations leader, or a CS leader. Right? You walk in with this depth of experience. And when you scratch below the surface and you are really truly intellectually honest about the business, very often it is not in place. And so this process — you probably have hints of it and you probably are looking at a lot of the same metrics, but you're not accruing them in the way that really creates that ability to scale with predictability. Because what I'm talking about is really, if you start with the moment that matters, you move to product market fit. When you have product market fit, then you can really dial into the go to market fit. And now if you follow that process sequentially — and I'm not saying this takes years, like depending on the agility and how your team operates, it can be a relatively quicker process, right? But if you follow that sequential process, then as you go speak to stakeholders, your board, your CEO, your CFO, whomever it is, you know exactly the levers of the business that you need to pull to increase revenue. Right? You know exactly that each dollar that's invested in your business creates Y outcome. And you're able to then track that from a fiduciary perspective, to be able to easily adapt and adopt to changes and demands in the marketplace in a very agile way and in a very quick way once you have those steps in place. And so what I've observed is very often people are like, oh yeah, I'm doing that. But when you really scratch below the surface, when you cut your business, it's really not about that we aren't looking at these things. It's like, are you accruing it in the right way? And I was trying to think, do you remember that story? There was a professor that had a jar and had rocks and sand and a beer. And, you know, you have the jar and you put the rocks in the jar and he asked like, is it full? And everybody's like, well, yeah, the jar's full. And then he puts the sand in the jar on top of the rocks and the sand fills in all of the crevices. Right? And then the professor goes, oh, is it full now? And everybody's like, yeah, it's full now. And then he cracks open the beer and puts the beer on top. Right? And then all three of those things go together. Right? But if you did those things in different order, if you did the sand and then the beer and then the rocks, everything would, you know, like, everything would overflow. Right? So the outcomes matter, and the outcomes are different based on how you're actually doing the process inside of your business.

Janis Zech: Beautiful. Beautiful. Love that. Love that story. I haven't heard about it, but, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Always one final question, and I'm not sure if you've been warned beforehand, but if not, you'll be put on the spot now. What kind of book would you recommend to our listeners? With one exception, you can't recommend Revenue Architecture by Jacco van der Kooij. But every other book is allowed. Can I give you two, or is there another one?

Tiffany Gonzalez: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So one book that I will recommend — and it's the reason, I think I forgot about this in my intro, but I joined Stage Two Capital as a limited partner. And so one of the reasons that I joined Stage Two was the founder, Mark Roberge of Stage Two. He's the founding CRO of HubSpot. Right? And when I met Mark and I started looking at his methodology and how he runs Stage Two, literally all of the things that I'm saying that I kind of learned the hard way and had to figure out, he's written about it in a book and he has a professorial approach to problem solving and data solving. And so the book is The Sales Acceleration Formula. I have it back here on my desk. So that's one of my absolute favorites because it digs into all of the details that I talked about in a very tactical operational way that's very accessible. So that's one of my favorites. My other personal favorite is actually a supply chain book and it's called The Goal. And it's one of my favorites because, it's really a sales book. If you really think about it, it's about ruthless prioritization of the one thing that is most preventing your business from scaling. And once you find that one thing, yes, there's always a million other things that we all have to go solve, but systematically fix that one thing that's the bottleneck in your business, and then go fix the next bottleneck, and then go fix the next bottleneck. There's an entire kind of methodology around that. But those two books for me were really transformational in how I thought about business.

Janis Zech: Love it. Thank you so much. We'll put those on our list. At getweflow.com/resources you'll find a lot of useful stuff there, some cheat sheets. Janis is big on cheat sheets at the moment. Follow him on LinkedIn. You'll find a lot of stuff there. So, yeah, thank you, Tiffany. I think this