Janis Zech: Welcome to another episode of the RevOps Lab. We are here with Laura Adint and Sean Lane. Welcome you both.

Laura Adint: Thanks for having us.

Sean Lane: Thanks for having us.

Janis Zech: Well, we always start with a very simple question. Who are you? What do you do? Laura, maybe you start.

Laura Adint: Sure thing. Currently, I'm a partner and an ops executive at a financial services firm. I've been doing RevOps for many, many years in a lot of different B2B companies. Drift and Adaptive Insights, a Workday company, are a couple of them. I have a long background in a lot of variety, which RevOps seems to have a lot of — finance, reporting, auditing, project management, consulting. So it's been a fun place to have it all go back together. And, of course, I'm here with my partner, Sean. So I'll have Sean answer.

Sean Lane: Awesome. Well, thanks again for having us, guys. My name is Sean Lane. Currently a partner at Beacon GTM. We're a go-to-market services firm that helps CEOs and revenue leaders improve their go-to-market execution. And similar to Laura, came up through the world of RevOps, spent the last ten, eleven years building out go-to-market operations teams at a couple different B2B SaaS companies, namely Drift where I met Laura, spent five and a half years there. Laura was my boss, and then spent five and a half years at a restaurant technology company called Upserve before that. So really excited to spend some time with you all today.

Janis Zech: Well, thanks for being on the show. Sean, I've heard your voice so many times. I've been loving your podcast, especially how you explain things. So if you don't know Sean's podcast, go listen. It's called Operations. Why did you get started back in the days with a podcast? Super curious.

Sean Lane: Yeah, it's a great question. And thank you, by the way, for listening. You and my mom, I think, are among our most regular listeners. In the early days of Drift, we had a number of different shows. And our CEO and our VP of marketing at the time had a show called Seeking Wisdom, which was all about personal and professional growth. They built up quite a following and a community around that show. And one of the pieces of feedback that we heard from folks was, hey, love the personal and professional growth lessons, but we would really love some function-specific lessons. And so we as a company decided to double down on that community that they had built out and built a whole bunch of different tracks for the show. So we had a marketing show, we had a product show, we had a growth show, and then I hosted our operations show. So I was fortunate enough to get that platform back in, like, 2018 and just kind of kept it going. And even after I've left Drift, took the show with me, and so we've done about a hundred and thirty episodes at this point. And really, the whole catalyst of the show was to try and seek out really smart people and have an excuse to talk to them so that we could learn from things that they had gone through in their companies and bring those lessons back internally at the time to Drift. But now I just continue to use it all the time. And one of the things we're gonna talk about today is that we ended up using a lot of the folks we chatted with on the podcast as source material for this new book, The Revenue Operations Manual, that Laura and I wrote together. And so it's kind of become this amazing repository of lessons. And so one of our ideas as we were going through the process of writing this book was, hey, what if people didn't have to listen to a hundred and thirty episodes? Although, Janis, sounds like you got good coverage there. We could codify a lot of the lessons from the show into the book. So it became a really awesome piece of source material for us.

Janis Zech: So you already mentioned it. You actually wrote a book on RevOps, which is, I think, fantastic. How many books are out there, Laura, Sean? I mean, any of you — how many books are out there on the subject?

Laura Adint: So that was actually one of the really interesting things that we found as we kind of had this fledgling idea of let's look at a book — we found one other book out there. And the book out there was like the case for why you should do revenue operations, but it wasn't by someone who actually was a practitioner of revenue operations. So that was really where Sean and I thought, hey, we've been doing this and we have this great repository of all these experts that have also been doing it. Let's put it out there on not just what is revenue operations and the case for it, but how do you do it? And how do you learn from others rather than trying to learn all the lessons on your own?

Janis Zech: Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, there's so many folks as we are hosting this podcast that approach Philipp and me and ask for, like, how do I actually learn all this stuff? Where should I start? And so today, I think we wanna talk about the revenue operations mindset, right, as the core theme of the conversation. So, obviously, so far, we've just plucked your podcast, we've plucked the book. Let's pluck a bit further. Tell us a bit more about the book and your view on this mindset.

Sean Lane: So I think first of all, the book unapologetically champions the operator. Right? And that was one of the things that was important to Laura and I as we got into this — this has typically been a function that has been a little bit in the background, right, been a little bit more of a support function than a role that has really been able to take center stage. And so what we wanted to do is put the spotlight on the operators themselves as a part of this book. And the more stories we learned, the more people we talked to, the more interviews we did, the more it became apparent that operators are very much like the central connectors in these organizations and the things that actually make them run. And, you know, I know it's easy for me as an ops person to say that and like I'm biased and all of these things, but at the end of the day, these teams are providing value to their companies and they're doing it in a way that drives outcomes. And so that's a lot of the things that we cover in the book — what are those types of outcomes that you can drive and how do you make them come about? And then to your question about this idea of the revenue operations mindset, this was not something that Laura and I went into the book writing process already having in mind. This was something that we kind of discovered throughout the writing process as these recurring themes that kept popping up. And so we were able to kind of step back and say, okay, what are the things that we have found to be true about the best world-class operators that we've spoken to? Right? And Laura and I, first of all, do not have all the answers. That's why we talk to more than fifty people for the book. But what we found in talking to these people is that there are a bunch of statements that appear to us to be true of the best operators. And so I'll rattle them off. Operators are strategic partners, not a support function. Operators focus on outcomes and not inputs. They are the perfect blend of strategic and tactical. They are lifelong learners, but they're not afraid to be wrong. You have to be okay with the fact that some of the stuff you're gonna do is not gonna work out. They champion their work, and they're proud of the impact they create. And then lastly, they believe in this constant incremental approach and this better, better, never done mindset. So those are the kind of six things that we codified. And then, ultimately, the book is hopefully a blueprint for ways that you can apply that mindset in the work that you do.

Janis Zech: Got it. Yeah, I mean, that's super interesting. Strategic partner versus a support function is one that I think is definitely worth drilling into. Like, what do you see as that difference? How are you a strategic partner and not a support function? How do you achieve that? And how are you not stuck in this pure technical role that I think a lot of operators find themselves in?

Laura Adint: Yeah, I'll go ahead and take that one. You're right, it is hard not to get into the tactical. So a lot of what we sort of think about with this, and how the experts talked about it, is creating value and starting with that — creating value, communicating that value, and then maintaining alignment on the work that's worth doing. So when you're doing this and thinking about how do you add value to the people that you're supporting — and we do talk about how revenue operations has lots of different incarnations and exactly which groups you support — but thinking about all of those as your customers, your internal customers, and understanding deeply what they do and sitting with them to understand how they do it and creating value from that. Then communicating the value that we're creating as a strategic partner, not just as, oh yeah, that stuff gets done. No. You have to talk about it and talk about the value of how it actually impacts the business in general rather than saying something like, hey, we're gonna work on this workflow. That doesn't really communicate value. Right? Well, what is that workflow gonna do? What's the actual impact of it? How many hours is it gonna save? What is the impact to your internal customers or your external customers? And being able to articulate that and continually maintaining alignment as new things pop up in the business — making sure that you're aligned with your internal audiences about the work that you're doing and making sure that it's still worth doing. So those are sort of the three things that we think of as how do you move out of just pure support into strategic, and it's a lot about that value and being able to align on it.

Sean Lane: I would just say that I'm positive we're not the first people to come on this show and say that ops should be a strategic partner and not a support function. But what we tell the operators that we talk to and the people that we coach is that seat at the table is not a given. Right? And so just because you say you wanna be a strategic partner doesn't make you a strategic partner. Right? And all the different ways that Laura talked about providing value is the way to earn that seat at the table and to keep it. Right? And so some people come into organizations and they've had a whole bunch of baggage from what ops meant to people before they got there or what it meant at the company they came to before that. And so you have to kind of start with a clean slate, especially if you're in a new job, right, and really articulate why RevOps exists and what you're going to do to provide value to those internal customers. Right? If you just go in and say, hey, you're treating me like a support function — like, guess what? Maybe you're acting like one. And so we wanna encourage people to kind of approach it with a way of thinking that gives you a little bit more ownership and agency than just being like a victim of the situation you're in.

Janis Zech: Yeah, got it. I think this is something we try to preach quite a bit. And from our experience, two really good opportunities to achieve that — one is the forecasting process, to really become a strategic partner there. Another one is territory planning. Another one is commission planning. Those are really where it's important to bring all those data points in and structure that and create really tangible and actionable insights that leadership can just go and take and move forward swiftly with making good decisions, hopefully. Do you have a favorite story of how someone — some of the experts that you talked to — achieved that switch from this more support function into a strategic role? Or yeah, just from personal experience?

Sean Lane: I think first, the longest chapter in the entire book is about planning. And so we go super in-depth on this. Right? And I agree with you that the routines around forecasting, planning, comp design are all phenomenal opportunities for an operations team to provide their value and also to take ownership over those processes. I think there's a few things that we found in kind of our conversations with folks. One is you can never start early enough on planning. Right? And I think that people who view planning as a once-a-year exercise are probably finding themselves in quite a bit of pain. Right? Like, planning is happening all the time. Every time somebody gets promoted, every time somebody leaves the business, every time someone transitions from one team to another, there are planning ripple effects of those decisions. Right? And so what Laura and I ended up doing with the team that we were building at Drift is we actually specialized our team to take into consideration the fact that planning is an ongoing thing. So we bucketed our team into three groups — planning, execution, and insights. And for us, planning is everything that you need to take into consideration before a customer-facing team member is even in their seat. So territory planning, comp design, headcount, quota capacity — those are all things that fall into that bucket. And yeah, you have to think about those and plan for those before the person enters the business, but it doesn't stop there. Right? And so that's one of the ways that we kind of took this idea of, okay, we need to be the people who really have ownership over this planning process, and translated that into the way we actually designed our org structure.

Janis Zech: Yeah, just a comment on this. So I think often to get to a strategic level, you want to have trust and kind of the ear of the executives. Right? And that's really hard to achieve. So I think on the planning side, right, often finance and go-to-market are not aligned very well. You have the top-down FP&A, you have the bottom-up go-to-market metrics. It's a great opportunity to drive more alignment and actually get a seat at the table on the CFO side. We had Tom Van Langhen on the show last week — talked about both reporting, both metrics. Right? That's a fantastic example where suddenly the executive layer is relying on you to do a really good job. Right? So you also have to deliver. There's a lot of pressure on that. Right? That usually comes with the strategic side. Right? If your metrics are completely wrong and your CRO gets fired because of that, that probably has negative ripple effects. But it's still a great way of basically getting out and being seen as more strategic. And I think the planning aspect you just alluded to is great. I think the other piece you mentioned, which I really like, is the insights piece. Right? I personally — I've been a founder and leader of various different companies — and what I always loved were these people that basically came with a unique insight that had a really big impact on revenue. Right? So you sit there, you have a lot of access to data, you know the funnel metrics better than anyone, and so you can see things that a lot of other folks don't see, especially how marketing connects to sales, connects to CS, and essentially help elevate that to drive strategic priority. Right? You find something like that, you build the rapport, and people rely on you more. They wanna know more of you. You suddenly sit in meetings you didn't sit in before. So these are some very specific things I experienced in the past as we're touching on this topic. Anyone, anything else to jam on here? Otherwise, we can also move to a different topic, but I think it's a fascinating one.

Laura Adint: Yeah. One of the things that we spend a little time talking about in the book, and we both fundamentally believe, is that revenue operations really needs to understand the fundamentals of the business that they're supporting — really spending the time not just understanding and knowing what your numbers are, but really understanding what do those mean, what is your business run on, what are your customers wanting from you. So this idea of how to be a really effective revenue operations leader means you must fundamentally understand the business that you're supporting, what those key numbers are, because they should be different for each different business. There's some similarity, but understanding really deeply those things is how you get to being able to be a strategic partner. It is really thinking of it not with the boundaries of a function and walls that way — it's really looking at the entire business in a very holistic way. So I think talking with others on how they have done that and where they get their information from, so that they can start to become that strategic partner — and you have to do that by learning.

Sean Lane: I think your point too, Janis, about wanting people to bring those insights to you proactively — like, that's all CEOs want. Right? That's all CROs want, is for someone to bring them that information. Right? And so going back to the point about how we purposefully design our org — right, like, if you actually say, okay, we are going to dedicate headcount to this idea of insights, you are much more likely to get insights. Right? And so I promise everyone here has probably worked with CS teams before or had them as a partner, and every single CS team in the history of CS has said, man, I can't wait until we can flip the switch from reactive to proactive — then we're gonna be the greatest CS team ever. Ops is the exact same way. And so what you think about with this insights group is you're actually kind of gaming the system a little bit by saying, no, we're actually gonna dedicate humans to the role of being proactive in the analysis we run and the insights we bring back to the business. We interviewed an amazing woman named Sylvia Kines. She built out the RevOps team at Eventbrite, and she was the one who kind of initially told us, like, when you build this into your org structure, you move away from the one-off crazy noisy requests that most RevOps teams get, and you start to systematize and operationalize this work a little bit. And so that's just one example of ways that you can build that into your ops team and, honestly, into the DNA of the broader organization.

Janis Zech: Love it. Such so many good points here. Let's maybe switch gears. You mentioned something — operators should focus on outcomes, not inputs. That sounds pretty logical if you think about it, but let's maybe dive a bit deeper. I think measuring the outcome of the operations team is often not that easy. We get the question a lot — how do I actually measure myself? How do I measure my team? And how do I measure my impact? Curious how you exactly mean this and some best practices to share.

Sean Lane: Yeah, I'll start. So one of the things that you find when you ask ops people about the work that they do is they're super excited to tell you about the workflow they built or the integration mappings that they set up, which is all super important work, but doesn't actually get to a business outcome. Right? At that first step, at least. Right? And so what we are stressing here is the idea that you have to do that work in order to create outcomes, but that's not actually where your value comes from. One of the people we interviewed for the book is a guy named Pete Kazanji, and one of the things he said is, like, the whole reason that an ops team exists is that we believe as a company that the salary we pay you will be less than the yield you will create for the business. Right? Pretty simple ROI. Right? We're gonna pay you a salary, you're gonna create more than that salary in outcomes for the company. And if you can't justify that, then the role shouldn't exist. Right? And so the way that Laura and I think about this, and the way that we ran it ourselves and the way we talk to folks when we're interviewing for the book, is everything in our mind should come back to goal setting. And how you set your goals and how you tie the work you're doing back to measurable outcomes for the business. And so what we would do with our teams is we would kind of poke at anything that they said they were gonna be doing and say, how do you make this measurable? How do you break down this big amorphous blob of a goal into bite-sized chunks and then tell me the metric that you're going to actually drive? So is this going to increase our meetings booked from X to Y because you're working on the way that our SDRs do prospecting? Is this gonna increase our productivity per rep because you're helping with a process that's gonna increase our win rates? How do you take the work you're doing and tie it back to measurable results? This is also, by the way, probably one of the only areas that Laura and I ever butted heads, because I would try to take credit for anything. And I'd be like, okay, we are on the hook for increasing productivity per rep of the company, we're on the hook for reducing churn — like, ops has to be the owners of this. And she would push back on me and say, woah, woah, like, you can't take all of this on our team. Like, there's some stuff that our partners actually have to contribute here. Right? And so that was one of the things that we would kinda haggle over — where does the level of influence of ops start and stop, and how do we be good partners but also set our own team members up for success? I don't know, Laura, what do you think?

Laura Adint: Yeah, it is curious. It is one of the very few areas that Sean and I ever had big disagreements on, and he's absolutely right. We would have this haggling, and we both would end up moving towards the better solution. Right? So I wanted to make sure that the appropriate ownership was where it needed to be. Right? So, like, increasing sales or increasing a win rate — making sure that it was on the appropriate person that can actually do that, because I really don't want any of my ops team actually going and helping out on sales calls that much. Sometimes, yeah, but not all the time. So we wanted to make sure that we were really focused in on the things that we could really make an impact on. But the exercise of making sure of, like, so what? Like, what difference does it make to the business of what we're doing as an ops team? And that's the key of it. Right? That was the heart of the discussion that was appropriate to have. As long as we had accountability for the appropriate actions and we weren't trying to extend past where our partners were supposed to be doing it, but fully owning what makes a difference to the business — that was the key. So we always ended up in the right place, but it was a very iterative process and really thinking about how we do that goal setting. We started with what's the business trying to do, and then we took our ops goals right from what's the business trying to do, rather than, well, what do we wanna do? Right? So that was key in thinking of how do you invert that, and then making sure that whatever you're doing, you can measure it. Because we had this thing of, like, at the end of the quarter, can you tell in thirty seconds whether you've actually accomplished what you were setting out to do, and can you describe it in a way that makes a difference?

Janis Zech: I love that. I think what you're describing is so hard because you have stakeholders that essentially have a big impact on all the metrics you just mentioned, like win rate and how many meetings are booked and things like that. Right? And so I think it is really, really hard. Right? But I love the idea of focusing on the outcomes and being able to measure that and really stand up for that. Because I think if you look at it holistically, ops should include enablement and should influence the CRO and all the other sales or CS or marketing leaders to then also make decisions to change the outcome. And some outcomes can take a lot longer because maybe the team in place is not the right team and you will never yield the results. And I think that's obviously something that ops has no control over, but the discussion is essentially what still needs to happen if performance is not where it needs to be. Right? Again, going back to the first point — if you have somebody who says, look, we have quota attainment that is all over the place, that probably means a variety of different things. We should sit down and think about what this means, including hiring and changing the setup. Right? But this is a tough conversation. And, Laura, I can totally relate to how you probably think Sean is super motivated, comes in with all the metrics, and you're like, okay, how do I make sure that I justify the value of what we're doing? But maybe that goes too far. I don't know. But this is a bit how I can think about it.

Sean Lane: I think another thing that ops teams maybe don't realize they can do in these goal-setting and priority conversations is they can kind of serve as this role model of operational excellence within the company. Right? So you mentioned, Janis, this idea of, hey, you've got these cross-functional partners that are gonna be dependencies on the outcomes of your goals. The best version of this is when you're writing these goals, you go to each one of those cross-functional partners and say, hey, like, are you gonna put your hand in the middle with me on this? Because I need you to sign up to this goal with me. And what you'll see happen is after a few reps, after a few quarters of that, all of these cross-functional partners will start to do the same thing with you on their goals. Right? So what might start as you going to that enablement team and them not even having their goals written down, a few quarters later is all of a sudden this amazing exercise where you're reconciling your goals together and agreeing on the business outcome that you're trying to drive. And so that's the best version of this. And if you're sitting there thinking, hey, this kinda sounds like a lot of work — like, yes, it is. But this is the thing you need to do in order to be able to say no when that noisy stuff ends up popping up. We literally have a whole chapter in the book about how to say no. And part of it comes back to goal setting. And if you don't have your goals written down or your priorities written down, like, you have no leg to stand on when you say no to somebody. Right? And so having this to point to and being able to have a really meaningful prioritization conversation with someone when they say, hey, this new shiny thing popped up two weeks after we've locked in all of our goals — which will one thousand percent happen — what do we do? Great, no problem. Let's look at the list. We can either take your thing and swap it with one of the things on the list, or we can wait until the next quarter, but we can't just add another thing to the list. Right? And so doing all of this really is kind of the prerequisite to being able to have those ongoing prioritization conversations that will inevitably pop up as you run your business.

Janis Zech: I mean, it sounds like this brings us back to the beginning where you talked about communication being super key. I think it's one of the big themes here. Right? You need to go out, you need to talk, you need to communicate, you need to align. Like, if you don't do that, I think you're just lost as an operator, particularly one that typically doesn't have super big teams but has to support and work with a lot of different other teams. Communication is even more key. One thing I'm super curious about is, like, you wrote this book now at a time where I think revenue operations is really top of mind for a lot of people, and you really see it becoming more relevant. I think it's a lot further ahead in the US. I think the UK is also further ahead than continental Europe. Continental Europe, as I say, is a little bit behind as always. But at the same time, you already see new roles coming up, like people talking about go-to-market operations, for example. So I'm just curious — how do you see that? Like, do you think RevOps is here to stay, or do you think it will naturally evolve into an even bigger role?

Sean Lane: So first of all, add on top of all of that change, like, AI and ChatGPT in the midst of writing the book — impossible to kind of stay on top of what's going on in the world. Like, version two is gonna have to come out pretty soon. So I think one of the things that Laura and I cared a lot about when we set out to write the book was the idea that we wanted to provide a really tactical blueprint for folks that wasn't just based off of this buzzwordy hype that everyone says — you know, you should have RevOps. Well, of course you should. That's great. But what does that actually mean? Right? And to your point, whether you call it RevOps, sales ops, go-to-market ops, field ops, it doesn't matter. The whole idea is that this function should be able to break down the silos of your business, remove the inconsistencies, and create what we think of as this high-achieving, scalable, and predictable revenue engine. Right? And so that's the outcome — to talk about outcomes — that the team is meant to drive. And so the book is meant to be a blueprint for actually achieving those outcomes. So to answer your question, yes, I think RevOps is here to stay. But whatever you call it, people have had versions of this — they've had internal consulting groups, and they've had chiefs of staff and mini projects, tiger teams, whatever. Right? But the whole idea is that this team should be able to create that kind of comprehensive view of your customer journey and find ways to make that customer journey more efficient, right, with the idea of more outcomes, more dollars at the end of the rainbow. And so hopefully we've achieved that and created this blueprint for folks to be able to follow. Because I do think, even though I joked about all the change, I do think a lot of the things that are true foundational building blocks to running a go-to-market or running a team are the same. The means to the end might change, but we were also really careful not to talk about too many specific tools in the book because those are gonna change too. But like, prospecting isn't going away. Forecasting isn't going away. Doing an annual planning exercise, bottoms up, tops down — those aren't going away. Right? And so we think a lot of those concepts are applicable. We also think it's applicable regardless of what your team is called. Right? So you might be sitting there listening like, oh, I only work in marketing ops, so is this actually — like, the concepts are the same. Right? And so we're trying to take this idea and all those statements I said earlier of the revenue operations mindset and turn those into these north-star aspirations for folks who work in these types of jobs.

Janis Zech: Yeah, I mean, fully understood. And I agree — probably these sort of behavioral patterns or just ways on how to operate at high excellence are typically always quite similar. And I also like that you took this approach where you kinda went for, okay, let's talk to the leading experts in the field right now, because you can learn so much from these personal stories, these personal experiences, and there's always something that you can take away from that for your own work. Like you said, no matter if you are in sales ops or marketing ops or just ops or whatever it's called, really. So outside of the book and your podcast, of course, and our podcast, what are the best places in your opinion right now to learn about revenue operations to become that excellent revenue operations leader?

Laura Adint: So I'll go ahead and take that one because I do think that it's the all-the-places-are-the-best-places kind of thing. I know that's a little bit of a cop-out, but like you said, there's a lot of resources out there. You have to seek them out. You have to look for them. Right? So there's a lot of podcasts — you've talked about several. Right? Like, resources. There's online groups. There's different RevOps groups that you can join on LinkedIn, etcetera, and reaching out to those that you know or people in your company that have worked with others before. So a fun little feature that we have — one of the things that Sean and I, as we were thinking about this book, is that we were kind of tired of all the business books that talk about how everything goes well all the time. Because the reality is things don't go well all the time, but nobody likes to tell them. Nobody likes to share them. So one of the features that we put in was a confession corner. And so what we do is we tell the stories of when it didn't go well and we anonymize all of it so that people feel free in sharing, because that's one of the ways that you can really learn, right, is from the mistakes. And why have to make all the mistakes yourself? You can learn from others. So we brought those in. And so actually in this, we told a story of an operator who had done a project to create a company's first renewal process. Right? And they did it, put themselves in with the CS leader, closed the conference room door, designed it all, rolled it out, and boy oh boy did it blow up. Right? And they ended up getting referred to a colleague of one of the people they worked with, and they had a phone call with them to just talk about what their experience was. And the person on the other end of the phone said, you tried the multiple opportunity thing, didn't you? And it was like, one phone call would have been all that it would have taken to save all of that angst and the hurt and the thing. So it's just a really good reminder of — reach out. It's unlikely that you're doing something that no one else has done before. There's a lot of great resources out there. Sean, what's the name of the group that we feature — because they have data, and you can do your research and find out what others, but you really wanna make sure you're getting good quality resources. And so we had somebody — Insight Partners — who does that from surveys of lots of other companies, that do really, really well to learn from quality sources and, like, you know, make the phone call before you roll out the project.

Janis Zech: Yeah, we actually just had Jeremy Donovan from Insight Partners on the show yesterday.

Laura Adint: Oh, like, the recording's probably gonna go live before this one. Lucky you.

Janis Zech: Yeah, hundred percent. Right? Like, he's great. The best. And super insightful. So yeah. I mean, like, also we sponsor RevOps Co-op as a RevOps community. I think those are also great. I think there's also RevOps Alliance out there. So I think it's definitely worth going to these meetups. I think — not sure if I mentioned this — I think we talked about it before the show recording started — Weflow organizes also meetups, at least in Europe and