Philipp Stelzer: Hello, and welcome to another edition of the RevOps Lab Podcast. My guest today is Richard de Veer. Richard has a lot of experience with holding roles at LG, Yahoo, PayPal, eBay, LinkedIn, head of a get around, and also started his own business, became a founder. And since twenty twenty, he's a director of revenue operations for corporate solutions at Just Eat Takeaway dot com. So very, very happy to have you, Richard. Very warm welcome.

Richard de Veer: Thanks, Philipp. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Looking forward to this conversation, and I've been following your podcast for a while, and this has always have been very interesting insights from the previous guests. So I hope to live up to the promise.

Philipp Stelzer: I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. Richard, would you mind — so I mentioned, like, a few of the companies that you worked at in the past, but, you know, probably your CV is richer than just that. So could you introduce yourself in two or three sentences?

Richard de Veer: Yes. So hello, everyone. My name is Richard, and for the past twenty five years, I've been working in internet marketplaces, predominantly. I've been fortunate enough to have been part of companies who have been disrupting their respective markets, whether that was in ecommerce, in payments, at PayPal, or in HR tech such as companies like LinkedIn. I've been a part of that growth. And for the past five years now, I've been part of the, yeah, dynamic food delivery industry working at Just Eat Takeaway dot com, helping to grow the corporate solutions arm, which is basically a business solution for companies to provide an allowance to their employees.

Philipp Stelzer: Your career was mostly in marketing roles before you joined Just Eat Takeaway, which I think we'll call JET just to keep things a bit smoother and faster during the conversation. But so mostly in marketing roles — how did you end up in revenue operations? So, like, how was that transition? Was it a conscious one, or did it just happen over time? Curious in the background there.

Richard de Veer: Well, it evolved quite naturally. Like, I think when joining companies that are very data driven — so when I joined the internet industry at Yahoo, marketing was very data driven, and that further increased when joining LinkedIn where as a marketer, I had a revenue target to hit and a pipeline contribution target to hit working very closely with sales operations and the sales teams in the fourteen markets that we were covering back then. And I always had a very natural interest to understand, okay, what are the mechanics behind revenue growth? And, of course, back then, LinkedIn was in hyper growth mode. So to understand that better and what levers to pull had my natural interest. So when I joined JET, I first joined as a consultant to help build this new proposition and launch this proposition, but quickly tapped into that experience and helped build the go to market function. So it was almost a natural transition for me combined with my experience, but also natural interest to evolve this function into a revenue operations function. So that was really the, yeah, the reason for me to make that transition.

Philipp Stelzer: Okay. Sounds good. So I'm actually a regular customer here in Germany at JET, which is called Lieferando here. Maybe you can explain briefly to our listeners who don't know the company — or maybe they know it from another name. I think you mentioned earlier to me, like, the name in Dutch, which I can absolutely not pronounce, or also probably different names in English speaking countries — just what JET does and, yeah, what also what this new initiative is that you work on.

Richard de Veer: Sure. So Just Eat Takeaway dot com, or JET for short, is an online food delivery marketplace active in twenty plus countries connecting consumers and our partners, be it restaurants or groceries. Locally, in the different countries that we operate, we are actually known under local brands. So for example, in Germany, you know us as Lieferando. In the Netherlands, as Thuisbezorgd dot nl. In Canada, it would be Skip. And in the UK, for example, it would be Just Eat. But all those platforms together are part of the JET group, and we basically help you get your favorite meal delivered to your doorstep. And now with corporate solutions, we're actually also delivering that food to your place of work, wherever that may be, in the office or be it in the hybrid work revolution at any place that you work. So that's basically Just Eat Takeaway dot com. This new initiative that we've been working on follows an acquisition that the company made in twenty eighteen when they acquired an Israeli company called Tendis. That company was very successful in penetrating the B2B segment, and one of the appeals was that the orders per user in the B2B segment was much higher than it typically is in the B2C segment. So the decision was made to acquire that company and soon after to roll out to countries in Europe and start to emulate that success. So that is the time when I joined to help build that team, help build that function. And since then, we've rolled it out into fifteen plus markets, including the UK, including Canada, and Australia, New Zealand, but also very present in continental Europe.

Philipp Stelzer: When I think about JET, I think about it — okay, you have this B2C side where end consumers directly purchase from JET. Then you have sort of, like, this B2B side, which is more account management focused, where you manage the relationship between the restaurants and all the suppliers, partners, delivery services, and so on. Right? I think it's very — that's probably quite complex. And then now in addition, you also have the B2B side where businesses basically order. So it's not the consumer that orders, but it's like a business that orders. Correct?

Richard de Veer: Well, actually, it's a bit of a hybrid. So indeed, like you say, you have consumers on one hand, which is B2C. We have the restaurants, which is B2B, and now there's a third arm, which is basically B2B2C. Because in the end, it's the employee that has the ability to order whatever they like, whenever they like using the allowance that they've been given by their employer. And they can use that allowance online, or — when rolling this out across Europe — we've launched a payment card which also allows you to use that same allowance at any food and beverage store that accepts Mastercard. So basically, we're actually going beyond the restaurants and choice that is available on our platforms, but basically making the world your company cafeteria.

Philipp Stelzer: Got it. So the user experience on that front is still, like, also an end consumer user experience, but then the sales motion is focused on the B2B side.

Richard de Veer: Correct. We have a sales team that is focused on, okay, how do we acquire companies that want to give an extra perk to their employees, but for the employee, not much changes. They basically get an allowance, but the user experience is the same as if they would order anything online as a consumer — with the caveat that now in addition, they also have a card with which they can go to any store of their choosing to buy the food of their choice.

Philipp Stelzer: Okay. Perfect. I think I got it. So what I think is actually quite fascinating about this topic is that — I mean, JET is a company that's been in business for a while, so there already was a lot of infrastructure that has been built. Right? So I'm sure there was already, like, the CRM in place, marketing automation systems, different payment providers, I don't know, like, forecasting solutions, different things. And now you have this, like, new sales motion. So how is this sort of, like, initiated? What was sort of, like, the thinking process going in there and building this up?

Richard de Veer: Well, the initial thought process was to keep it separate as a venture for it to, yeah, gather its own learnings and to figure out, okay, how do we find product market fit, and how do we create an efficient operating model to grow. But, of course, leveraging existing infrastructure — given that in the end, the user experience is the same, and I, as an employee, am also an individual private user of the JET platform. So infrastructure that we could leverage was, for example, our CRM machine and the technology behind it in order to connect with our end user. Even though they're currently then wearing their employee hat, but using that same lifecycle machine to drive up usage and adoption was something that we could leverage. On the operating side, actually, it was decided to use a separate instance of our CRM tool and then completely make it tailored to our needs because selling to companies and enterprises is somewhat different than selling to a restaurant. There are lots of commonalities, but there are also differences. The deal cycles tend to be longer. There tend to be more people involved in the sales cycle, so requiring changes to our CRM solution to make it fitting to our way of working. So in that sense, we didn't leverage the existing Salesforce instance, but completely designed an instance to our own desires and needs in order to operate efficiently. So I think those two things were what we could leverage the most. Other than that, most of it has been developed from scratch. Of course, using existing functionalities like legal or HR in order to build up the department and making sure that you are compliant with all the regulations and procedures that are applicable to a publicly listed company. But other than that, we are basically building out this venture completely from scratch and have been doing so for the past years.

Philipp Stelzer: And the main motivator behind really, like, setting up, for example, your own Salesforce instance — and also, like, other tools building them from scratch, I'm sure there's more things that we can get to later — is the main motivator really speed, or what was it?

Richard de Veer: It is indeed speed. Like, in order for us to figure out and find product market fit quickly, in order for us to build up our team, and, of course, building a new venture inside such a large company that is JET, where resources are, of course, allocated to where the largest impact is — but if you're starting from zero, your absolute contribution is, of course, relatively smaller than that of an existing line of business such as the B2C side. So in order for us to not be blocked by internal procedures or internal priority settings and in order for us to gain speed in terms of execution, we are very much independent right now, but, of course, aligning where needed with the larger company and leveraging what we can in order for us to grow.

Philipp Stelzer: Okay. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, I mean, a typical scenario that we see is, you know, a lot of companies merge together, they grow through M&A, and then one of the biggest hurdles that we continuously see is companies trying to merge the different CRMs together into existing CRMs instead of sometimes just doing it from scratch to be a bit faster. They can go through this very, very complicated half-trying to merge everything together, try to make all the historic data work, and then have, like, endless meetings around this, and it just takes ages. And in the same time, you could have sort of, like, spun up, like, several own CRMs without a problem that would also work just as well. So I love that you went that path. I think it's great. So what were some of the other challenges or things that needed to be set up? So I think, like, the technical side is probably one thing. Then, you know, if you work with a different sales motion, you probably also have a different setup of the sales team itself, maybe of the incentives. The ICP is probably different. So, yeah, how was this approached?

Richard de Veer: Well, initially, what we started out with was identifying our North Star as corporate solutions and how does that build up, but also how is that then translated into JET as our group so that on a KPI data level, we are speaking the same language and everything is aligned and all the data that we generate are actually nicely calculated through on a JET group level. But other than that, figuring out, understanding, okay, what is our target market? For whom is our proposition most relevant? We needed indeed to identify our ideal customer profile completely from scratch. And, of course, with the COVID period, that created a bit of disruption into our market because the workplace has changed forever. So that required us to also further fine tune ICP, but it also required learnings. When you're starting from scratch, you don't have a perfect picture of which customer is most prevalent or more prone to buy your product. So that was something that we needed to develop. But also understanding, okay, what is our North Star? What are the KPIs that are driving that? And what are the KPIs then that we would like to be translated into the desired behavior from our sales team? How do we incentivize them to drive the metrics that matter for us, and how do we then translate that into an incentive plan? Following that, how do we design our go to market function? Like, what kind of functions do we need in order to create a go to market motion that is fitting to realize our full potential. So in that sense, figuring out, okay, what kind of go to market functions do we need? How do they align with one another? What KPIs do they carry? And how does that then help us realize our North Star? But also from a sales enablement function, figuring out, okay, given that the way of selling to a corporate enterprise is somewhat different than selling to a restaurant partner, it also requires a different sales enablement approach. So developing that was also something that we developed from scratch.

Philipp Stelzer: And what was the role of revenue operations in all of that? Did you work closely with the sales team, or was this sort of, like, also, like, a founder team within that venture? I'm curious about, like, just the decision team setup.

Richard de Veer: Well, I think initially what we had was, in order to build out the venture, we had sales teams in market which were growing over time. And as we entered new markets, new sales teams were formed. On the other hand, we had the product and tech team in Israel to help us develop the product and further enrich and develop features that are fitting for the European markets. And on the other hand, you had different project managers to develop certain projects. So for example, develop the CRM system, our Salesforce instance, or develop the website so that we can actually tap into inbound traffic and start communicating to the market, okay, what are we about? But having that setup basically resulted in having multiple priorities across the team. So that was the point where I advocated for the creation of a RevOps function so that you would only have three functions. You would have the sales teams in market. You would have the product and tech team developing product roadmap. And you would have the revenue operations team that would have that oversight all the way from marketing to customer success and further cultivating that customer. So to have that full end to end view and figuring out, okay, where in that process or where in that journey are things underperforming or do we see potential to accelerate — that was a reason to develop that revenue operations function.

Philipp Stelzer: And how does the RevOps team then set up? Sort of like, who are you reporting into? And within the RevOps team itself, how do you split it up? Is it, like, is there, like, a technical team and a strategic team, analytics team?

Richard de Veer: Sure. So as I mentioned, we have basically three functions. Product and tech team — they report into the product and tech organization of JET as a whole. Then you have the sales team where each regional manager has its dedicated sales teams. And then you have my team, the revenue operations team. And both those functions report into the general manager of corporate solutions, who in itself reports to the founder of JET. So my team is basically made up of three areas. We have marketing, content marketing, product marketing, and sales enablement as one area, which is to create demand. Then the second area of the team is focused on insights, the process, and the operations in order to make sure that our sales teams on the ground can be as effective and efficient as possible. So their role is to capture demand. And then the third area of the team is aimed at business development and looking at, okay, how can we further expand our value proposition and really cultivate our demand and do upsells towards our customers so that they get more value from our product offering? So that is focused on partnerships, but also developing new propositions such as the card that I was mentioning to allow in-store purchases, but also, for example, something that we launched recently was a gift card solution so that you as a company can provide gift cards to your partners or your employees. That is something which is then developed in that part of the team to further look at, okay, what does that proposition require, and how do we operationalize it and make it a robust working engine working on its own almost.

Philipp Stelzer: What I love about the setup — like, hearing you talk — is it sounds really like you achieved something that many revenue operations people dream of, and that is like having a strategic impact and, yeah, decision making power really in how to drive actually the go to market motion and to really work closely with the other partners in sales, success, account management to shape the roadmap and really drive company success. So I'm curious, like, are you quota carrying?

Richard de Veer: We have a pipeline contribution target as well as, okay, how much are we contributing to the overall revenue and GMV in the end. So in that sense, we contribute to the business as such. We are not incentivized on, like, a bonus related pay that if, for example, we are not hitting quota, then that will not be the main driver of our ultimate bonus, as it would be, for example, for someone who works in sales.

Philipp Stelzer: Right. Okay. But I think it's great — so you measure, like, the pipeline contribution, then there's probably, like, some variable component part of the pay around, like, overall company goals, I would assume.

Richard de Veer: Yes. Yes.

Philipp Stelzer: Okay. Great. You also mentioned — I mean, JET is active in, I think, twenty five markets or at least more than twenty. Right?

Richard de Veer: Twenty markets indeed. Yeah. Twenty markets worldwide.

Philipp Stelzer: So how did you manage that sort of, like, you know, global rollout to the different markets? Did you start in one specific market and then kind of, like, gradually rolled it out to other markets? Did you do everything at once? Like, how was that experience?

Richard de Veer: It was a gradual roll. Like, we, of course, looked at the markets where on the B2C side we have a strong position, where our brand is well known, and where already we have a strong position in market, and then decided to roll out as we went along. So but quite quickly, at the pace that is quite common at JET, we rolled out relatively quickly and currently are live in fifteen markets with our corporate solutions product offering, but very much took an approach on, okay, where do we have the most likeliness to succeed given our existing position, but also how can we best differentiate from competitive solutions in market today to get initial traction. And as we started to understand, okay, what is our North Star, what are the KPIs that we need to measure, and started to see traction, we doubled down on the markets where success was most present and started to build out from there and adding markets to further increase our geographic footprint. In the end, the goal is to be present in every market JET is active in on a B2C front, and we're nearly there to see markets.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. I mean, that's quite impressive. Like, would you say that the complexity of the RevOps systems that you need to manage and, you know, continuously develop and maintain — does this increase drastically the more countries you roll out, or is it more like, you know, if you add, like, Italy, Spain, and then you also add Germany and France, it's actually not more complexity because it's all in Europe and it's similar?

Richard de Veer: Well, I think it's the balancing act. I think it's that global-local play that you have to balance in order to understand, okay, every market is different, requires some local nuance in order for it to make it work. But at the same time, in order to scale, you need a singular process that everybody needs to follow in order to have apple to apple comparison. But at the same time, some markets are bigger than others, have distinct roles where in other markets those roles are combined, if you will. And that in itself also impacts the way you operate as a RevOps team. So for example, in some markets, we have full cycle account managers who are both responsible for acquiring those customers and supporting those customers and managing the account to further grow it. Where in other markets where the relative size of the team is bigger, we have dedicated functions where there are people that have an SDR function that are focused on new business, and others have a customer success function whose role it is to further grow the account. So those nuances that you have across markets that you need to take into account — of course, because it's also natural in the business that you need to accommodate the local situation, and you can't immediately from the start decide, okay, we are gonna put a full fledged team in market A because it first needs to prove itself and start to show traction before you decide, okay, we now are at a stage of maturity that we can split up functions and create dedicated functions and therefore accommodate that from a process perspective. So in that sense, we're basically trying to cater to the needs of the different fifteen markets that we operate in, but, of course, skew towards the markets that are already the most successful and the largest, and with a lens of, okay, what we are developing as a RevOps team needs to be applicable to all markets in order for us to scale and in order for it to be efficient and effective, but at the same time leave sufficient room for local nuances that need to be catered for.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. So to maybe recap for our listeners — so I think, just correct me if I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is basically, okay, so the process overall is the same in all of the countries, but then the sort of, like, how it's perceived from a company or a buyer perspective, more or less. And then, like, internally, you have different setups. You have these full cycle AEs in smaller markets. Right? So they need to manage different processes than, like, in bigger markets where you have, like, specialized functions — SDRs, AEs, AMs, and so on. So in those markets, you need to sort of, like, have a different internal process, or maybe the process even looks the same but people just need to go through more flows within the CRM, for example, to manage things. But really, like, from your point of view, it's critical that you try to unify the process as much as possible across all the different markets because, otherwise, complexity increases way too much and it becomes hard to manage.

Richard de Veer: Yes. And it also doesn't allow you to scale that. I think having that harmonization of process — like, that's probably a softer word than unification, but harmonizing the different processes across those different markets — that is something that we've been trying to do over the past years. And to a large extent, the process is the same across all those markets, which allows us also then, yeah, to create that strong fundament, allowing us to achieve higher peaks.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. It also makes things more comparable. I think you mentioned that earlier. Right? So for example, when you try to do forecasting across the different markets and you have different processes behind these different markets, then, of course, you need to take those nuances also into account every time you do forecasting, and then to use your word, harmonizing the different forecasts into one big forecast — for example, just to stick with that example — is then a lot more complicated. So just the comparability of the business processes, I'm sure that already carries a lot of value in itself.

Richard de Veer: Yes. And I think it's a prerequisite for RevOps in order to be strategic because in the end, those inputs are inputs to your strategy and how do we further grow the business moving forward. So having that harmonization, that unification across the board will actually help you form your strategy. So in that sense, it's a prerequisite for the RevOps function to be successful.

Philipp Stelzer: Yep. Great. I love that. In hindsight, looking back, what do you think were, like, sort of, like, the biggest challenges that you had to overcome in the first couple of years? I think the whole initiative started in twenty twenty is when you joined. Now it's twenty four, so it's four years later. I'm sure there's a few things you can share.

Richard de Veer: Yeah. Well, I think first, it was aligning on the North Star. Like, I alluded to it earlier — the easy, or maybe the first reaction would be, okay, that is GMV or that is revenue. But in the end, that is only an outcome of an underlying driver. So understanding, okay, actually in our case it's orders per user, because that indicates how sticky our solution is from an end user perspective, and are they getting the value out of our product that we foresee? So basically lining up and gearing all of our efforts towards how does that help increase orders per user — that was one of the challenges that I faced in the beginning. I think one of — in hindsight — at first, we had a very diversified approach. As we entered a new market, every market was given the autonomy to figure out, okay, how do we conquer that market and how do we grow that market? That resulted in different priorities across the board, which would also make it very hard to focus, to see impact of your efforts, as well as to get sufficient traction as you're spreading yourselves too thinly. I think a third element is, given that complexity, simplifying that again in terms of your operation was another challenge over the years. So what we did also was simplifying our sales incentive plan, making it much clearer towards our sales team what are the drivers of our success, what are the underlying outputs that we need from you as a sales team in order to move those metrics, and then how do we incentivize you accordingly, making it very clear and transparent on, okay, what is it that I get rewarded for and that helps the business grow. So, again, going from a very complex situation to a much more simple and transparent situation was a third challenge. And I think the fourth challenge is just operating on a daily basis as efficiently and effectively as possible. Given that the market is changing, given that we are expanding as teams, as we are also figuring out our ideal customer profile where we are actually moving up market and start to tap into the enterprise segment of the market — that also requires a different approach. So you need to continuously iterate and be critical of your processes, of your sales incentive plan, of your go to market setup, but also in terms of your marketing, like how do you adapt to that changing market, but also that learning that you then gather that, okay, this is actually the market that we are best suited to cater for, but how does that then affect how we operate? And making those changes and basically prioritizing all those different changes that you are trying to overcome — that was a fourth challenge as a RevOps team.

Philipp Stelzer: And I think, like, the way that the RevOps team is set up at the moment for you, it sounds like you're in a perfect position to factor all that in, create the learnings, look at the data, make the analyses, create strategic plans, make suggestions, discuss it with the other stakeholders, and get things going. So I think that sounds really, really good. And moving forward, how do you think about that venture within JET? Is it something that you think should sort of, like, merge back into the umbrella group at some point? I'm not sure about, like, how the rest of JET is set up, but do you think that makes sense, or should it be kept as its own venture for a couple more years or indefinitely? Yeah. Curious what your plans are.

Richard de Veer: I think the ultimate consideration that you need to make is what is fitting for the customer. And the customer that we cater for are companies — our HR directors, facility directors, or procurement leads on the one hand, and their employees on the other hand. So we need to create an experience that best caters to them. Given that that is different than it is on the partner side, it makes sense for now to keep it separate. But at the same time, in order to create more efficiencies of scale, to create more efficiencies in how you operate, it also makes sense to make use of certain capabilities that we have centrally. For example, Salesforce development capabilities — tapping into that — or from a sales enablement perspective, into the trainers that we have available on a JET group level and making sure that we can make use of that because there are some fundamental aspects of selling that are applicable across the board, which we can tap into and make use of from the central sales enablement function, but also technology that they use in order to distribute content or engage with their customers. Like, using that technology embedded into our processes and in our existing tech stack — that is something that we can leverage from the central team as well.

Philipp Stelzer: Okay. So basically, keeping independence but also, you know, sort of like, you know, harmonizing with the rest of your organization where it makes sense in order to save cost, time, and just increase efficiency. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. There's no sense in duplicating efforts in that sense. But leverage where it makes sense — that seems like the logical approach. Yeah. Sometimes there's lots of shades of gray to this. Right?

Richard de Veer: Yeah.

Philipp Stelzer: So thank you so much, Richard. That was super interesting. Looking back at your career, we always ask this one question of all of our guests. What advice would you give your younger self or someone who's just starting out in revenue operations today?

Richard de Veer: I think one of the main skills that I would advise my younger self to acquire quickly is to have that mindset of being a curious learner so that you always remain curious. But in order to satisfy that curiosity, you need to be able to ask the right questions or ask questions in general. So being able to ask the right questions will, on the one hand, satisfy your curiosity, but it will also show that you are interested in the other party. And by listening carefully to what they're saying, you get a better understanding — okay, why should we do this or why should we not do it — as well as it builds rapport, and it builds a connection with whoever you are dealing with. So I think that is a massive skill set that can set you apart. And as being in RevOps, a large part of your function is also to make sure that everybody is moving in the same direction and making sure that all the different programs are aligned and that it basically becomes a unified experience for the customer. So being able to understand, okay, why are we doing this or why should we not do it, and being able to stimulate your critical thinking and ask the right questions — I think that is a skill that you cannot master early enough. So if I would give an advice to my younger self, yeah, that would be it.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. Asking humble and sometimes naive questions definitely is a skill. I mean, I've been guilty of it myself, like, especially in the beginning of my career. Like, you know, you start to, like, sort of, like, talk more about yourself. You know, you're nervous, you don't really ask the questions, like, you bombard the other person with lots of stuff. But, yeah, that's probably not the best approach to have a good conversation. Right? So, yeah, I think this is very sound advice. Overcoming that fear of asking questions and not limiting yourself on, okay, maybe this is a naive question or maybe this is a silly question — there is no such thing as that. So being comfortable with asking questions in order to understand the reasoning behind the request or behind the thought process, yeah, that will help you understand the bigger picture of things and understanding the why, which then again becomes a great input for your strategy.

Richard de Veer: Perfect.

Philipp Stelzer: Richard, thank you so much for joining this episode.

Richard de Veer: Thank you again, Philipp. Thanks for having me.