Janis Zech: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the RevOps Lab podcast. I'm here with Philip, and our guest today is Jeremey Donovan. Jeremey, hey. How are you doing?

Jeremey Donovan: Great. It's good to be — good to be back on. Great to see you guys again. I think it's been at least a year or so. Lots have changed. Lots have stayed the same, but we'll go through some, I think, some interesting stuff today.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Thanks for coming back. Last time we talked about territory design — was an awesome episode. We just recently, you know, had our hundredth episode, so we've been very active. We had — you know, I think my favorite one last year outside, obviously, talking to you was John McMahon because you don't talk to him every day, and it was pretty awesome to tell you what the song is.

Jeremey Donovan: There's no comparison. I'm a huge fanboy of John McMahon, so I'm a student of everything that he says, everything he writes. Yeah. It's been so good.

Janis Zech: Maybe we can get Marco Berge on the podcast one day. I think that would be also pretty awesome. But yeah, we had so many awesome people sharing great best practices with the community, and we actually launched our own community and stuff like that. So it's been a really good year for us outside of, you know, also growing the business a lot. But, you know, what we wanna talk about today is — I mean, so maybe you can do a quick introduction. Who are you? What do you do? For the people who actually don't know you. I assume everybody knows you. And then I'll talk more about the topic. But yeah, maybe just a quick introduction would be great.

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah. I like to joke that one day I'll be as famous as Beyonce, and I could just go by my first name, but I don't think that's happening. So I'm Jeremey, and I, these days, work at Insight Partners. So we're a large venture capital firm focused on B2B SaaS. We have — it's related to what we're talking about today — we have over five hundred and fifty B2B portfolio companies, and the cool thing about that is we get to get data from them, and we get to ask them to complete surveys as well. So we actually recently ran a CRO survey where we reached out to all of our CROs. Not all responded, but we got about two hundred replies, and we asked them a lot of questions. And we're kinda trying to extract from the results the things that differentiate the top performing companies from, you know, the average or the lower performing companies. And the whole goal there is, right, is internally we learn that and we can teach all of our portfolio companies what the best companies are doing, but also happy to share that broadly. We don't try to keep that in house. Love to just help the overall community sell more effectively and achieve their goals.

Janis Zech: Thank you. Always appreciate it. Yeah. So I think that's the topic of today. We'll go through some top takeaways from the survey. Obviously, we won't cover all of those. Outside of that, you also helped scale a bunch of different companies in different roles. But just go to LinkedIn, follow Jeremey — he's very active there, highly recommended, and shares a lot of data driven insights on go to market, which I think is very much appreciated, especially on LinkedIn where these days everybody, you know, sends two cold emails and makes, you know, six million pipe coverage. So that is much appreciated. Let's kick it off. I mean, so maybe — what are some top takeaways? So the way we do is, like, you just mention a takeaway and then we'll discuss it and we'll go further. And then at some point, we'll be tired and, you know, have to stop.

Jeremey Donovan: For sure. Yeah. I mean, part of my reason for doing this is to learn. Right? And it's to test things that people have been debating for a long time and there's not necessarily data — there has not been a data driven way to answer these questions. So one of the first ones that we were trying to understand was how broad should a CRO be? Right? Like, the technical definition of a CRO, which is pretty rare, by the way, like, that anyone ever adheres to the definition, is that they run sales, presales and post. Right? And they run customer success and they run marketing. Like, how common is that? And then is owning all of those things a good idea? And what we found was — and I think it's not surprising, but it's good to have data to justify this — generally, the CROs of the top performing companies are really focused on the commercial aspect of what they do. So they own sales and they own expansion. And by the way, I see CROs with some frequency who just own, say, new logos and don't own expansion. I scratch my head at that. Right? Because a lot of times, you know, they might have a peer who's a chief customer officer who owns expansion and renewals and customer success. But what this study showed — and obviously, it depends on the context of the firm, but just, you know, these are sort of statistical averages — the top performing companies statistically have CROs who are focused on new logos and expansion, and then they shift all the other stuff off to a peer. Right? So they're gonna have a CMO who's a peer, so you're not gonna have the CRO owning marketing. And then they have a chief customer officer or VP of customer success, whatever the title happens to be, the head of who has the customer success proactive reactive motion and potentially renewals as long as renewals don't involve a significant amount of reselling or expansion. So like, I think that one is confirming a suspicion, I think, we all had. And in a way, if you think about the way that jobs are structured, it's kind of an efficient market. So I've — in addition to an engineering background, I also have picked up an MBA along the way and was at a place where they really pride themselves on focusing on efficient market theory. I think that's kind of what happened here is like, why do you see so many organizations where the CRO does not own those additional functions? Well, it's because they kind of found out through trial and error that the best thing is to focus on the commercial motions.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one thing that would be interesting also to understand is sort of, like, the share of top performers who focus on these, like, non directly new logo expansion topics — CSMs, like, customer success, the marketing function, like, enablement functions — sort of like the split between, like, top performers and overall on those areas?

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah. So only about — let's take each one of those in turn. Right? So new logo sales, right? I mean, pretty much everybody owns new logo expansion, ditto. You know, you're talking ninety to one hundred percent. There's not a huge difference, but then you do start to see these significant differences when you go into other areas. So in customer success, on average, about forty-ish percent — a little over forty, maybe forty-two percent of them own customer success. But among the high performers, it's only about thirty percent. So you start to see those differences grow. And then marketing, by the way, it's like not that common for any CRO to own that, but it's about twenty-five percent of CROs own marketing on average, and then it's about seventeen percent own marketing amongst the top performers. So these are — you know, like, I think a lot of these things you might object that these are small percentage differences, but this is Moneyball. Right? You're trying to gain an edge and have the most effective companies. And that's what we're looking for, right? If there was a very, very obvious answer to any of these questions, then everyone would just do it that way. That's part of what the survey was designed to do is just to find these little edges. At one point in my career, I worked for eight years for former McKinsey partners. I was not at a consulting firm, but they had moved into a company that I was working at. And they were all about this idea of — they refer to it as bright spot analysis — find the edge. I think this was long before Michael Lewis wrote Moneyball, but, you know, find the edge.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then maybe just a question. What about partnerships? And then also, obviously, we're on a RevOps podcast. So RevOps, sales ops. Right? Like, is that typically similar — separated by marketing ops, sales ops, customer success ops? And then also like SDRs. Right? Like, do they typically sit now?

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah. So partners — the top performers tend disproportionately to own the channel partner ecosystem. So it's seventy-five-ish percent of top performers own it versus about sixty percent of average performing companies. So yeah, definitely that's part of the commercial motion. And then sales ops also disproportionately the top performers own that. So about ninety percent of top performers own sales ops versus about seventy-eight percent of average performers. So I mean, in sales ops in particular — you know, I sort of since I ran sales ops, I felt this, but I also was thinking academically about it. Like academically, sometimes I could argue myself into centralized RevOps, right, where, okay, if there's a CRO, a CMO, and a chief customer officer who are all peers, then you could make the argument that, hey, I should really centralize this with somebody. And because I want it to be unbiased and effective, I might centralize it under somebody else like a CFO or a COO or something like that. But my observation — you know, being in the job for many years and then observing it now — there's just such a huge advantage to having your ops person as your right hand in whatever you do. So these days, I'm a much stronger advocate of, like, have sales ops report to the sales lead, have marketing ops report to the marketing lead, and CS ops — if that's separate — you know, you could have that report to the CS lead. We could talk about all kinds of subtle variations of whether that includes systems or not and data, which is a whole other can of worms, but at least from the strategy and analytics planning point of view, the closer these people are to the leader they support, the better. And really having that RevOps — I have to dig that other part of the survey out, but I believe, you know, we asked our CROs, like, what is their relationship with their RevOps person, whether they're, like, their right hand or not. And see if I have that. Yeah. I do have that. So interestingly, yeah, there's not like a huge difference. We asked, how would you describe the role of the RevOps leader within your org? And the choices were my right hand strategic partner, a mix of tactical and strategic, or primarily tactical. And there's not like a huge difference here, but it's about, you know, forty percent of the time, it's their right hand strategic partner. And then, whatever, like, five-ish tactical and strategic, and then the balance is just tactical and administrative. Part of that may also be — one thing we didn't cut here was by the size of the company. So we'll often see, right, our portfolio ranges anywhere from, you know, a couple million dollars of ARR up to a billion and beyond. But most of them are in like the ten to a hundred million range. For really, really small companies, typically the first RevOps or sales ops hire is like a Salesforce admin type. So it's very possible that a little bit of that skew towards not being the right hand partner is for those super early stage companies. Because, you know, like I'll routinely be on calls with CROs, and very often they include the RevOps person on the call. Like, I would say that happens almost all the time, which I think is great. You know, right now, part of the survey — we can get to this in a bit — is we asked a lot of questions about the use of AI, and in those use of AI questions we asked, is this specific use case something that you've adopted and are getting high value out of, all the way down to, like, not adopted, not considering? And now we're going back to those CROs, and we're interviewing them, and we're asking them just about this particular topic. We said, okay, like, these were the three AI use cases you said were adopted and getting high value out of. What are you doing? Like, how are you actually implementing that? How did you approach it? And I would say on more than half the calls, the CRO brings their head of RevOps along with them for that call because it's probably the head of RevOps who actually is doing the work.

Janis Zech: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think RevOps is perfectly positioned to do the revenue orchestration workflows and AI workflows. And obviously, I think we all know this, but a huge problem with that is often having the data available to actually use the LLMs in a meaningful way. But I have a question on the previous one. For the ones like — is there, like, right. So RevOps being, like, tactical versus very strategic. Right? Like, is there a difference with regards to the top performers versus the overall average?

Jeremey Donovan: Not really. Not really.

Janis Zech: Yeah, not really. So you would think, you would hope that having RevOps as your right hand would make you far more strategic. But yeah, the data is the data, so it's other things that are explaining the differences.

Philipp Stelzer: Yeah. And one thing that I also thought was interesting here with the stats that you shared with the marketing piece, I remember like two, three years ago, LinkedIn was full with like, the CMO role is dead. Like, as always. Right? Like —

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah.

Philipp Stelzer: X is dead. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we have, like, another thing around, like, outbound SDR that might, like, blow some people's minds later on if we get to it. But it's just, like, it's so telling. And, I mean, like, you already mentioned, like, company size, revenue. Right? I mean, obviously, also very different if you're, like, product led, if you have, like, a high velocity sales motion or, like, longer sales — like, sure. Right? Like, it may make more sense or less sense to, you know, own the marketing piece, but marketing is so complicated. Like, this is not like a simple thing that you do if you really wanna do it well with all the different challenges. So, yeah, I'm not surprised to see less high performance there.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I remember when — so we do these cheat sheets on LinkedIn. Right? And we did one on the CRO role. And then this had around four and a half thousand comments, and I had so many CMOs basically complaining that the CRO shouldn't run marketing. This was very consistent. This is very anecdotal, but it really sparks a big debate. I think it's good to see that in data. Curious on the — I mean, you touched on this. I think this was actually really interesting on the SDR function. So I think there was this predictable revenue model. Then I think it felt like the last couple of years, full cycle AEs were back in en vogue. And you also asked this question, how has the company's approach to outbound SDR function evolved over the past one to two years? So curious if you have results on those.

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah, this is a super shocker. So while I was absolutely expecting that, you know, people's approach to outbound SDR had basically decreased, right, that they were contracting or eliminating their outbound SDR function — so the super surprising finding here, and this is where, yeah, I have a stats background besides the engineering background and business background. Used to teach stats at NYU. And so I try to pay attention to these things. This is where correlation and causation really, really matter. So super surprising result is that overwhelmingly top performing companies expanded their outbound SDR teams relative to average performers. And this was a stumper. And my — we don't know for sure, but I think what's going on here is, like, you have to ask yourself, when does outbound SDR-ing work? It works when a couple of conditions, right? So I was on with a portfolio company in the last couple days, and like they have a low ASP and a really effective outbound SDR function. And I was thinking, what in the world, right? Because if you do the math, generally outbound SDR-ing does not work when you're below about forty or fifty k, you know, ACV. And this company is like a fifteen to twenty k ACV. But the deal is, right, it's about velocity. So they have a, you know, sub one month close, right, a sub thirty day close, and the people that they're calling answer the phone, right? Like your ICP, if your ICP answers the phone, it's gonna work a lot better. So if you're selling into very small businesses, right, because we're all B2B — I mean, B2C is a different story — but like if you're calling Joe's Pizza Shop, right, Joe's Pizza Shop, probably Joe is gonna answer the phone when you call because you might be ordering a pizza, right? So I mean, literally, this is how a lot of these payment companies, right, have succeeded even though they have low ASPs. And so anyway, that's kind of one circumstance. And then the other circumstance is when the brand is really well known. So because of my job, I'm very restricted in mentioning companies, but conjure for yourself, you know, a hot, hot company. And if that company were to call, you know, their target prospect, and they answer the phone, they're probably gonna respond and take a meeting, right, to learn more — or emails them, they're probably gonna wanna learn more. So I think what's happening here is these — it's that they are high performing companies with well established, well known brands that allows them to invest in the outbound SDR function. If you don't have those things — and I've observed this again in our portfolio companies — like, if your brand is not well known, if you're under forty k ACV, that's where the contraction and or elimination, very commonly elimination of the SDR, outbound SDR function is happening. Can't recall if we asked about — oh, we did ask about inbound — and like there definitely, the inbound SDR function is contracting like pretty much across the board because people would either route directly to the AEs and the tech is really good for doing that now, or they'll adopt AI to — if they need to do some kind of pre-vetting, prequalifying. Right? There's a ton of either homegrown or off the shelf tools that people could use to do inbound.

Janis Zech: Yeah. It's a perfect AI telephony use case, really, if you really need to do that qualification. I feel the world is better off without having these qualification costs.

Jeremey Donovan: I agree with you. There are some instances where there's a lot of tire kickers, but a lot of times you'll hear the excuse. Right? Like, a CRO will say, you know, or a CMO, whichever, they'll say, you know, but the AEs are not responding fast enough to the inbound leads. That's a bad excuse to me because, you know, sales engagement solutions are everywhere. Right? Like, you can get a sales engagement solution and just pipe the — you know, that lead directly into the sales engagement system that automatically triggers an email to go out. It automatically triggers a cadence or sequence, whichever is your term of choice, that, you know, they can go to. And it's up to the first line sales managers to hold their reps accountable to that. Right? Like, it's not an excuse. And in fact, by the way, I think as it — going back to that whole thing about why is it that, for example, having the head of RevOps as the right hand is not necessarily correlated — it's not uncorrelated, it's just not differentially correlated with success. And it's because, like, my observation in, you know, the last four years of working with so many portfolio companies is success is, like, really, really basic. It's just operational excellence. I was talking yesterday to — I don't know if you've had him on the podcast, but Jeremy Duggan.

Janis Zech: Nope.

Jeremey Donovan: Who — he was — yeah. So he's at PTC and, you know, responsible for inventing a lot of what is common in enterprise sales, like as good of a guest as John McMahon, right? Like someone I was in fanboy heaven talking to him for an hour yesterday. And he made this point. I was asking him about the progression of enterprise selling throughout the years post PTC. And he made a really good point to me, which was like, yes, there was polish that was added to everything. But the problem is so many people don't do the basics. And he gave an example of pipeline generation. Right? So he said, we know that in enterprise sales, reps should spend about twenty percent of their time generating pipeline. And if you just tell them that but don't hold them accountable to it, people don't really — you're not really gonna be able to spend twenty percent of Monday, twenty percent of Tuesday, twenty percent of Wednesday, twenty percent of Thursday, twenty percent of Friday. It's just life happens, you know, and you get distracted, and it's — I think he used the analogy, like, it's like eating your broccoli or your brussels sprouts or whatever, your vegetables. People just don't wanna do it. So instead, PTC came up with PG Tuesdays, right, and they just blocked every Tuesday. And everybody, all the way from the reps all the way to leadership, right, was hyper focused on pipeline generation. And, like, merely doing that is, like, way better than ninety-nine percent of companies. And then you polish. Right? Like, you can polish then by the type of research that you do in order to, you know, be effective or the way you leverage executives for outreach or the way you leverage partners or this or that or the other thing. Like there's a hundred ways to polish that have been improved on over time, but just start having operational discipline. And that is a hallmark, I just think, of, like — we do know the answer, and the answer is operational discipline.

Janis Zech: I mean, it's yeah. I think everybody listening to that, right, can relate to it. And I think very much a reality we all live in. And I guess if you block it out and the whole company is focused on it, it just makes a huge difference. And I think the other piece is, it's often regarded as — I think the SDR function itself is regarded as someone who just joins from college and is basically high velocity. And at the same time, pipe gen is always the issue. This is always the issue. Any company, you can never have enough pipeline. I mean, it's just impossible. But well, that said, so any other observations, any other topics you — I mean, so many probably. You're like, yeah. Any other things that stood out where you're like, okay. This is really, you know, changing.

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah. We can focus on a sweet treat. We teased on AI, so we'll come back to that in a minute. But the other one — I'm one of the — besides territory, which we talked about a while ago, I geek out on a lot of things, and I really geek out on hiring and talent. And the thing that we — that I don't yet know is the following, but we have a little bit of information in the survey that helps. What I really wanna know is, like, you know, when you ask CROs, what do they prioritize when they're hiring? They'll give you a bunch of things, right? So there's a bunch of things that are intrinsic factors and a bunch of things that are more experience related factors. And this ties — we talked about PTC earlier — they have a hiring methodology that they refer to as ICCE: intelligence, coachability, character, and then experience. So those first three, right, intelligence, coachability, and character are sort of three example intrinsic traits. There are others. And so we asked — what I would really like to know is which of those really matter, you know? And then secondly, what is the most effective way to actually assess it? So like take intelligence — by the way, there's a ton of academic research on the importance of intelligence in job performance. And intelligence I think explains something like twenty-five percent of the variation in job performance in jobs in general. So I think there's great evidence to support that. But then the question is, like, as a CRO, how do you actually assess intelligence during the hiring process? An obvious way is you could actually give somebody a critical thinking test. And some people do that. Right? They'll use Criteria Corp or they'll use Wonderlic. There's a few of them out there. But most don't, that I can tell, especially SaaS startups. You know, most AEs, when the job market was kind of hotter, wouldn't tolerate having to take an intelligence test. Right? So you have to assess it in other ways. But we asked — I don't know the definitive answer to all the other criteria, but we asked them at least how do they prioritize? What do they put the most importance on? So I'll just read them off in order for reference. So number one was grit. And in all of these, there's no huge difference between top performers and average performers. Number one is grit. Number two is intelligence. Number three is curiosity. Number four is coachability, and number five is competitiveness. You know? So those are all things that people list off, but it's kind of like in what order do they prioritize them. And the grit thing kinda ties to — a lot of these tie to character. Right? And I think you can map them back to, like, character or coachability. Right? So I think the grit thing ties to character, and I think the curiosity thing and the coachability thing are pretty intertwined, and then competitiveness also, I think, ties to character. The other one we did was to ask about experience factors, like same vertical, same stage company. So I'll just rattle those off in the interest of time because we still got that AI topic, I think, hanging out there. I wanna make sure we have time for that. So number one thing they prioritize is a proven track record of quota attainment. And that's again, these things are similar between top and average performers. And, you know, like, that completely makes sense to me when you're hiring. Two is, either vertical market or product experience. Three is a similar sales motion, like, were they mainly a new logo rep versus an expansion rep? Were they mainly handling inbound versus outbound.

Janis Zech: I, by the way, would have thought that would have been higher in priority than the vertical marketing. Is that also respecting kind of which segment that you're in, like, the sales cycle length and deal size?

Jeremey Donovan: Yes. It would exactly do that as well. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Not — well, yeah, no. That's a different criteria. Sorry. Okay. So the motion then is experienced at a similar stage company. Right? So that makes sense. And then the last one is what you just asked about, which is similar average deal size experience. So that was — I mean, things are all kind of important, but I wanted to understand where people are actually prioritizing these things in the hiring process. And yeah, I mean, some of them were a bit of a surprise, like the deal size thing you asked about. Someone who does ten thousand dollar deals versus someone who does one hundred thousand dollar deals, like those orders of magnitude really, really, really matter. And a hundred thousand dollars versus million dollar deals, right, it's a very different thing to, you know, process to sell those. And if you go two orders of magnitude, right, like a ten thousand dollar deal, which is high velocity, versus a million dollar deal, which is, like, you've got a small army working on the deal. Your prospect has a small army, you know, trying to buy. It's just so radically different.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I'm very surprised that that's so low. I mean, I assume that's like — I mean, right? Like, there's certain thresholds where I think it's almost incompatible.

Jeremey Donovan: Agreed. I'm just trying to think of — listening to your podcast and so many others, you know, what do people say? They generally say, I'll take someone who knows how to sell and teach them the product versus somebody who knows the product and teach them to sell. And that's why this is surprising, right? Is because like someone who knows how to sell is somebody who has done similar deal sizes, right? Someone who has sold in a similar sales motion. So it was a bit surprising that like the vertical market product category experience tended to pop as being, you know, a bit more important.

Janis Zech: Yeah. I agree. I mean, it generally makes sense, but at the same time, it's not what you typically hear people say.

Jeremey Donovan: Yeah. I will say — maybe this is an important point — is that average performers prioritize that vertical market product experience higher than top performers. So maybe there is a wisdom here, right, which is that the top performers recognize that it is the similar sales motion, you know, that matters more.

Philipp Stelzer: So just wanna add a side note here. So, obviously, this is a very RevOps focused podcast. I think it's very important to understand, and I think most of you know this, that most sales leaders, to really rise up the ranks and become VPs and CROs, need to become absolutely excellent at hiring. And the people aspect of running a sales organization is the most challenging and critical thing to do. So if you listen to sales podcasts, this is very much top of mind. And so I think there's always this question like how can RevOps help on being more strategic, having a seat at the table. I think very few conversations are about how can RevOps help improve the hiring outcomes? But I think improving the hiring outcomes is just so, so important for everyone.

Jeremey Donovan: It's fundamental, yeah. It's funny that — I mean, it's funny, sad, I don't know, disappointing actually that RevOps people are not way more involved in hiring. So again, just like by way of example, in my last operating role, I was very involved in helping to define the hiring profile, and we went about it in a very data driven way. So for instance, you know, for every one of the roles — AEs, SDRs, whatever — we did the following. And I'll give you an example for SDRs. So we pulled profiles of two thousand SDRs at just companies in general. And then we coded — we used a firm to like code — where do they go to school, what did they study, did they work before they joined and became an SDR, what job did they work in, how long did they — like everything we could possibly kind of get out of looking at their LinkedIn profiles. And then our measure of success was whether or not the SDR either lasted at least two years in the company that they were at, or better, that they were promoted to an AE at the company. Right? Because that's what success for an SDR is. And like we then used the findings from that, which had very clear findings of what the right profile should be, and used that to hire our SDRs. You know? And so, like, we did that for SMB AEs, mid market AEs, enterprise AEs, like, every role we did that. So and that was a, like, RevOps initiated study, right? Like HR very rarely has the analytical capability to do stuff like that, you know, but RevOps people often do.

Philipp Stelzer: I mean, just, you know, I just wanna comment on this. I think this is actually a great example. And again, this has a huge impact on the success of a company. So from sourcing to selecting to basically promoting, to setting the guardrails, to thinking about comp structure, but also bands, salary bands, all those things. This is essentially another process that you're running and the better the process, the more successful the company will be. And so I think it's definitely worth thinking about for anyone here in RevOps, how you can support that process. I have this anecdote from the ex CEO of Duo Security, ex CEO of Zendesk. And so basically what he said is — this was more in context of culture, but creating culture is really hard. You have to basically consistently hire, fire, and promote against your key operating principles. So starting with the operating principles. And then as an example, that person who's very experienced, very successful — the first three hundred people. Anyone who came into the company, that person interviewed. And this really stuck with me because as someone who's built multiple companies now, I think really finding that amazing talent is really hard. It's a lot of work, but it really changes the trajectory of companies. It's this typical Good to Great, like Jim Collins principle — get the best people on the bus and then see what comes out. And I think there's some examples, whether you like them or not — McKinsey, BCG — some of those, they do this very, very well. And the same is true in sales. The best sales organizations, you look at their profiles, you go through the profiles and you just find amazing talent there, amazing talent density. And PTC is a great example here, right? The density of PTC going out in the enterprise is just unprecedented. And so I think this is just an overall process that, you know, could very well be supported by, you know, ops folks.

Jeremey Donovan: